2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
1
Joined: 12 Mar 2021, 16:03

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

CMSMJ1 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 13:35
Tvetovnato wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 12:45
CMSMJ1 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 12:20
@littlebigcat - I did put "cheating" in the quotes. It is the inference of people who will say that if you breached the cap, then you cheated. There will be little recourse to the actual rules, as the jury of the people will already decide.


The way to prevent it - any fines are paid to your competitors and they have it as a bonus - free development - on top of their cap.

If you overspend (e.g)5 millions - you have to give that overspend to your rivals out of your own budget (that can be spread over 3 years)

No more cheating... 

Team in breach would be down 45 million bucks and in each year will be 15 million down til they pay it off.
That opens up for strategies on how to use and circumvent the cap rule though. So any team can in theory then go all in during one season to go for the title as they will keep the title. A team like RB, Mercedes or Ferrari who have a lot of money and can happily pay whatever fines are thrown at them.

No, sporting penalties must be applied, or they might as well remove this whole cap rule. I guarantee that losing your drivers title because of cheating the cap would make sure we don’t see any cap problems ever again.
I agree that there ought to be sporting penalty too - but not retrospective. Maybe a reduction in points for the coming year? That will also cost them money,
Why not retrospective? Doping penalties/DQs happens all the time for events where it is deemed to have been provided a benefit. As it should. And same here, it’s technical doping of a car giving two drivers an unfair advantage. If you only penalize for future events, it will not be enough of a deterrence.

User avatar
Wouter
106
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post



20 minutes ago from Austin

Communication between Mohammed Ben Sulayem and Christian Horner is very difficult, so are the sounds.

FIA president has not yet allowed Horner to speak to him. Planning is for the two to meet today. Budget cap saga is starting to get messy.
The Power of Dreams!

littlebigcat
littlebigcat
1
Joined: 06 May 2017, 19:47

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

The two shouldn’t be meeting. It can only call the whole process into question.

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
7
Joined: 18 Feb 2011, 00:16

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

So there are rumours that Red Bull were found to be in breach by the FIA of $1.8m, similarly there are rumours that Red Bull filed paper work showing to be up to $4m under. Why on earth would Red Bull leave $4m of development budget unused?

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

KeiKo403 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:13
So there are rumours that Red Bull were found to be in breach by the FIA of $1.8m, similarly there are rumours that Red Bull filed paper work showing to be up to $4m under. Why on earth would Red Bull leave $4m of development budget unused?
Given they filed under budget, and ended up over, I think the most likely answer is a very poorly skilled accounting department!
197 104 103 7

littlebigcat
littlebigcat
1
Joined: 06 May 2017, 19:47

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

KeiKo403 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:13
So there are rumours that Red Bull were found to be in breach by the FIA of $1.8m, similarly there are rumours that Red Bull filed paper work showing to be up to $4m under. Why on earth would Red Bull leave $4m of development budget unused?
A buffer to insure against you getting your exclusions and deductions wrong. RBR probably weren’t the only ones who had a few things rejected, but the likely have had the biggest costs rejected.

User avatar
AeroDynamic
349
Joined: 28 Sep 2021, 12:25
Location: La règle du jeu

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

They wouldn't leave 4m on the table by accident given the crying out about damage costs to their cars in 2021.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

This is an interesting plot twist I didn't know about.

The head of the financial regulations Federico Lodi, is a former Redbull man!
https://www.linkedin.com/in/federico-lo ... xperience/
Image
197 104 103 7

User avatar
ispano6
143
Joined: 09 Mar 2017, 23:56
Location: my playseat

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

dans79 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:18
KeiKo403 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:13
So there are rumours that Red Bull were found to be in breach by the FIA of $1.8m, similarly there are rumours that Red Bull filed paper work showing to be up to $4m under. Why on earth would Red Bull leave $4m of development budget unused?
Given they filed under budget, and ended up over, I think the most likely answer is a very poorly skilled accounting department!
Nah, it's RedBull that is the target of vendetta by the usual suspects. Outside people telling RedBull their right hand is their left foot.

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

ispano6 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 17:18
dans79 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:18
KeiKo403 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:13
So there are rumours that Red Bull were found to be in breach by the FIA of $1.8m, similarly there are rumours that Red Bull filed paper work showing to be up to $4m under. Why on earth would Red Bull leave $4m of development budget unused?
Given they filed under budget, and ended up over, I think the most likely answer is a very poorly skilled accounting department!
Nah, it's RedBull that is the target of vendetta by the usual suspects. Outside people telling RedBull their right hand is their left foot.
How did outsiders manage to convince the UK government not to give RBR a massive tax credit?
197 104 103 7

07Patches
07Patches
0
Joined: 20 Mar 2022, 19:53

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

littlebigcat wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:24
KeiKo403 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:13
So there are rumours that Red Bull were found to be in breach by the FIA of $1.8m, similarly there are rumours that Red Bull filed paper work showing to be up to $4m under. Why on earth would Red Bull leave $4m of development budget unused?
A buffer to insure against you getting your exclusions and deductions wrong. RBR probably weren’t the only ones who had a few things rejected, but the likely have had the biggest costs rejected.
Formula 1 teams don't miss a target by 4 million, this is entirely an overreaction to the findings they were well over budget and are fishing for what they can get away with and soften the overspend blow

User avatar
mwillems
28
Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

I just listened to an interview on Sky Sports. It talks about how the numbers around the Cafeteria, Redundancy pay and the Sick pay may put a different perspective on this for Red Bull, inferring it makes it look like it is a bit harsh. But I don't get that because didn't everyone have the same costs and accounting? Naturally if you feel you have a bit more to spend in a championship going to the wire, that extra to spend will go to in season and next season car performance...? The reality is they didn't have that money to spend and benefitted from it, irrespective of whether they intended to or not.
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

User avatar
mwillems
28
Joined: 04 Sep 2016, 22:11

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

ispano6 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 17:18
dans79 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:18
KeiKo403 wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 16:13
So there are rumours that Red Bull were found to be in breach by the FIA of $1.8m, similarly there are rumours that Red Bull filed paper work showing to be up to $4m under. Why on earth would Red Bull leave $4m of development budget unused?
Given they filed under budget, and ended up over, I think the most likely answer is a very poorly skilled accounting department!
Nah, it's RedBull that is the target of vendetta by the usual suspects. Outside people telling RedBull their right hand is their left foot.
I'm happy to be wrong about Red Bull (My opinion is they should be punished), but could you be a bit more helpful and give a constructive reason as to why you think this is Other people telling RB that their right hand is their left foot?
I'm not taking advice from a cartoon dog

-Bandit

User avatar
dans79
267
Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

mwillems wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 18:22
I just listened to an interview on Sky Sports. It talks about how the numbers around the Cafeteria, Redundancy pay and the Sick pay may put a different perspective on this for Red Bull, inferring it makes it look like it is a bit harsh. But I don't get that because didn't everyone have the same costs and accounting? Naturally if you feel you have a bit more to spend in a championship going to the wire, that extra to spend will go to in season and next season car performance...? The reality is they didn't have that money to spend and benefitted from it, irrespective of whether they intended to or not.
I don't consider this a good source, but it tries to break it down some.
https://racingnews365.com/red-bulls-f1- ... main-areas
Red Bull cost cap breach

Red Bull were initially well within the cost cap figure of $145 million by about $4 million before multiple factors combined to push them $1.8 million over, according to RacingNews365.com's sources.

These included

Internal costs related to gardening leave and sick pay - $800k
Catering costs - $1.2 million
The other areas that pushed the team over the cap included the use of spare parts and a tax situation with UK authorities which meant the team went from $4 million under to $1.8 million over - a swing of about $5.8 million it is understood.
The internal costs are said to involve former head of aerodynamics Dan Fallows, who resigned in mid-2021 to take up the technical director job at Aston Martin, according to RacingNews365.com's source.

As is normal in cases of personnel moving between teams, he went on a period of gardening leave, although the well-placed source understands that Fallows was moved across to the Red Bull Advanced Technologies branch of the business - away from the racing entity.

Red Bull Racing did not factor Fallows into their calculations it is believed, while the FIA did.

The rest of the costs were allocated to standard sick pay for team personnel.
RacingNews365.com also understands that a chunk of the overspend was caused by spare parts and a rules re-classification on them.

Parts designed for the 2021-spec of cars that could not be carried over to the new breed were previously exempt, but in June of this year, the rule was changed so these parts were included in the budget total.

The catering costs added up to $1.2 million of the total overspend, with other minor expenses pushing the total towards the cap limit.
The largest chunk of the overspend is believed by RacingNews365.com to relate to potential tax credits and reimbursements from the United Kingdom tax authorities - His Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC).

Known as Research and Development Expenditure Credit (RDEC), it can be claimed by contractors who have been hired by a larger firm for R&D work and have either received a grant or subsidy or the expenditure is greater than an aid cap on the scheme.

Calculated at 13% of qualifying R&D expenditure, some of the credit is able to be used to get rid of some tax liabilities.

Red Bull are believed to have expected a rebate from HMRC, but this did not materialise, adding the $1.4 million to the budget for the year.

However, RacingNews365.com understands that the situation is fluid and if Red Bull are able to prove they were expecting some sort of rebate from HMRC, the FIA will look leniently on this figure.
197 104 103 7

User avatar
langedweil
1
Joined: 23 Mar 2018, 20:51
Location: Caribbean

Re: 2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

Post

The plot thickens ...
HuggaWugga !