Mercedes W11

[Nano4k]

have i seen it right? Bottas has started the race in 2nd gear?

[ncx]

If any other team or the FIA were suspicious, then we’d know about it- like with the Ferrari last year. The other teams’ silence suggests a lack of suspicion of foul play. We already know Red Bull are very trigger happy and very publicly vocal if they suspect anything improper. Silence speaks volumes in this case.

No silence, according to Tombazis:
“But we are always given information by teams, worried that maybe some other team may be doing this that or the other. It’s almost on a weekly basis we receive some form of comment."
(From motorsport .com)

Be interesting to see that quote in context. Is it in relation specifically to Mercedes, or F1 as a whole?

Not specific to any team. It was a general statement on monitoring that regulations are being followed.

The teams may not always speak aloud, at least not as a first step. It doesn't necessarily mean they think it's all fine.

[El Scorchio]

No silence, according to Tombazis:
“But we are always given information by teams, worried that maybe some other team may be doing this that or the other. It’s almost on a weekly basis we receive some form of comment."
(From motorsport .com)

Be interesting to see that quote in context. Is it in relation specifically to Mercedes, or F1 as a whole?

Not specific to any team. It was a general statement on monitoring that regulations are being followed.

The teams may not always speak aloud, at least not as a first step. It doesn't necessarily mean they think it's all fine.

I feel it's a bit of a leap from that general quote to infer that all is not right with the Merc particularly, but yes, you are right there probably are more grumblings about things than we would ever know about. However, the point I was making was that with notable things like RP this year, like DAS, like FRIC, like the Ferrari engine last year, if anything significant is under the microscope, it's pretty well publicised. Nothing so far on the Mercedes PU....

[ncx]

Be interesting to see that quote in context. Is it in relation specifically to Mercedes, or F1 as a whole?

Not specific to any team. It was a general statement on monitoring that regulations are being followed.

The teams may not always speak aloud, at least not as a first step. It doesn't necessarily mean they think it's all fine.

I feel it's a bit of a leap from that general quote to infer that all is not right with the Merc particularly,but yes, you are right there probably are more grumblings about things than we would ever know about. However, the point I was making was that with notable things like RP this year, like DAS, like FRIC, like the Ferrari engine last year, if anything significant is under the microscope, it's pretty well publicised. Nothing so far on the Mercedes PU....

I agree, I wasn't using that quote in regards of Merc specifically. Only 3 weeks from the start of the season. Give it time

[El Scorchio]

Not specific to any team. It was a general statement on monitoring that regulations are being followed.

The teams may not always speak aloud, at least not as a first step. It doesn't necessarily mean they think it's all fine.

I feel it's a bit of a leap from that general quote to infer that all is not right with the Merc particularly,but yes, you are right there probably are more grumblings about things than we would ever know about. However, the point I was making was that with notable things like RP this year, like DAS, like FRIC, like the Ferrari engine last year, if anything significant is under the microscope, it's pretty well publicised. Nothing so far on the Mercedes PU....

I agree, I wasn't using that quote in regards of Merc specifically. Only 3 weeks from the start of the season. Give it time

So you expect a protest about their engine or another aspect of the car at some point soon then?

[ncx]

I feel it's a bit of a leap from that general quote to infer that all is not right with the Merc particularly,but yes, you are right there probably are more grumblings about things than we would ever know about. However, the point I was making was that with notable things like RP this year, like DAS, like FRIC, like the Ferrari engine last year, if anything significant is under the microscope, it's pretty well publicised. Nothing so far on the Mercedes PU....

I agree, I wasn't using that quote in regards of Merc specifically. Only 3 weeks from the start of the season. Give it time

So you expect a protest about their engine or another aspect of the car at some point soon then?

I am fairly confident that the other big teams are studying the Merc with suspicion, as the advantage is huge, but I wouldn't expect a protest very soon. They would have to be somewhat specific in their protest so to request a 'clarification'. Even if eventually it may end up with guesswork anyway, it has at least to be plausible, and there are several more sensors and restrictions to take into account (and potential ways to get around them). However, some not-so-subtle innuendo may start sooner.

[zibby43]

I agree, I wasn't using that quote in regards of Merc specifically. Only 3 weeks from the start of the season. Give it time

So you expect a protest about their engine or another aspect of the car at some point soon then?

I am fairly confident that the other big teams are studying the Merc with suspicion, as the advantage is huge, but I wouldn't expect a protest very soon. They would have to be somewhat specific in their protest so to request a 'clarification'. Even if eventually it may end up with guesswork anyway, it has at least to be plausible, and there are several more sensors and restrictions to take into account (and potential ways to get around them). However, some not-so-subtle innuendo may start sooner.

I think the size of the advantage is being grossly over-exaggerated based on one weekend. There was none of this talk in Austria.

As far as Merc's PU is concerned, it's not miles ahead of Honda or Renault. They made a nice step during the off-season as a result of chasing the Ferrari PU, which likely featured illegal tricks for not only 1, but 2 seasons (ERS in '18). There's not some sort of magic bullet on the car.

It is a beautifully executed evolution of the W10, which would've been far more dominant than it actually was in '19 if Ferrari weren't using their nuclear missile of a PU all year. Hamilton still hounded LEC at Monza, and would've likely won there without some very "relaxed" stewarding.

For the W11:

• Merc abandons their traditional side pod architecture and adopts the high-top inlets
  
  Merc incorporates DAS (which was ruled legal this year, but banned next year, which flies in the face of the arguments that Merc never have their innovation wings clipped) into the car, which requires huge weight savings in other areas of the car
  
  Merc is able to make strides on the PU side after suffering from a detuned PU all of last year, which was forced to run detuned because of a fundamental cooling problem that was somewhat alleviated during the season, but never able to be fully rectified
  
  Merc completely re-designs the rear suspension
  
  Tied in with the rear suspension, they also completely re-design their diffuser, which, along with the rear suspension and rear floor architecture, is one of the most critical areas of the car in terms of producing powerful, efficient downforce

The W11 is literally scrutineered, weighed, and measured every weekend. Teams have been studying it since Barcelona.

[zibby43]

Speaking of the new rear suspension and diffuser . . .



Nice shot of the barge board area as well:



Kudos to 007 for finding these.

[Mansell89]

What a car.

Watching it in Hamilton’s hands in particular this weekend was quite something, especially qualifying.

Just completely stuck to the floor whatever was asked of it. A huge well done to the Mercedes team of engineers. Quite some benchmark.

[tangodjango]

So you expect a protest about their engine or another aspect of the car at some point soon then?

I am fairly confident that the other big teams are studying the Merc with suspicion, as the advantage is huge, but I wouldn't expect a protest very soon. They would have to be somewhat specific in their protest so to request a 'clarification'. Even if eventually it may end up with guesswork anyway, it has at least to be plausible, and there are several more sensors and restrictions to take into account (and potential ways to get around them). However, some not-so-subtle innuendo may start sooner.

I think the size of the advantage is being grossly over-exaggerated based on one weekend. There was none of this talk in Austria.

As far as Merc's PU is concerned, it's not miles ahead of Honda or Renault. They made a nice step during the off-season as a result of chasing the Ferrari PU, which likely featured illegal tricks for not only 1, but 2 seasons (ERS in '18). There's not some sort of magic bullet on the car.

It is a beautifully executed evolution of the W10, which would've been far more dominant than it actually was in '19 if Ferrari weren't using their nuclear missile of a PU all year. Hamilton still hounded LEC at Monza, and would've likely won there without some very "relaxed" stewarding.

For the W11:

• Merc abandons their traditional side pod architecture and adopts the high-top inlets
  
  Merc incorporates DAS (which was ruled legal this year, but banned next year, which flies in the face of the arguments that Merc never have their innovation wings clipped) into the car, which requires huge weight savings in other areas of the car
  
  Merc is able to make strides on the PU side after suffering from a detuned PU all of last year, which was forced to run detuned because of a fundamental cooling problem that was somewhat alleviated during the season, but never able to be fully rectified
  
  Merc completely re-designs the rear suspension
  
  Tied in with the rear suspension, they also completely re-design their diffuser, which, along with the rear suspension and rear floor architecture, is one of the most critical areas of the car in terms of producing powerful, efficient downforce

The W11 is literally scrutineered, weighed, and measured every weekend. Teams have been studying it since Barcelona.

Thanks for the great post and rebuttal. Sometimes the posts made here remind of conspiracy reddits or flat earth society websites.... truly beggars belief.

[zibby43]

I am fairly confident that the other big teams are studying the Merc with suspicion, as the advantage is huge, but I wouldn't expect a protest very soon. They would have to be somewhat specific in their protest so to request a 'clarification'. Even if eventually it may end up with guesswork anyway, it has at least to be plausible, and there are several more sensors and restrictions to take into account (and potential ways to get around them). However, some not-so-subtle innuendo may start sooner.

I think the size of the advantage is being grossly over-exaggerated based on one weekend. There was none of this talk in Austria.

As far as Merc's PU is concerned, it's not miles ahead of Honda or Renault. They made a nice step during the off-season as a result of chasing the Ferrari PU, which likely featured illegal tricks for not only 1, but 2 seasons (ERS in '18). There's not some sort of magic bullet on the car.

It is a beautifully executed evolution of the W10, which would've been far more dominant than it actually was in '19 if Ferrari weren't using their nuclear missile of a PU all year. Hamilton still hounded LEC at Monza, and would've likely won there without some very "relaxed" stewarding.

For the W11:

• Merc abandons their traditional side pod architecture and adopts the high-top inlets
  
  Merc incorporates DAS (which was ruled legal this year, but banned next year, which flies in the face of the arguments that Merc never have their innovation wings clipped) into the car, which requires huge weight savings in other areas of the car
  
  Merc is able to make strides on the PU side after suffering from a detuned PU all of last year, which was forced to run detuned because of a fundamental cooling problem that was somewhat alleviated during the season, but never able to be fully rectified
  
  Merc completely re-designs the rear suspension
  
  Tied in with the rear suspension, they also completely re-design their diffuser, which, along with the rear suspension and rear floor architecture, is one of the most critical areas of the car in terms of producing powerful, efficient downforce

The W11 is literally scrutineered, weighed, and measured every weekend. Teams have been studying it since Barcelona.

Thanks for the great post and rebuttal. Sometimes the posts made here remind of conspiracy reddits or flat earth society websites.... truly beggars belief.

Haha well said! I'm glad I'm not the only that has picked up on that vibe in a few of the threads here recently (and no offense to ncx if that wasn't his intention to peddle conspiracy theories). Normally I don't address the wild accusations, but after a year of seeing Brixworth wrongly bagged on for supposedly dropping behind Ferrari in the PU department, to see their hard work diminished and written off as anything but is a bridge too far for me.

And thank you very much for the kind words. Much appreciated!

[El Scorchio]

I agree, I wasn't using that quote in regards of Merc specifically. Only 3 weeks from the start of the season. Give it time

So you expect a protest about their engine or another aspect of the car at some point soon then?

I am fairly confident that the other big teams are studying the Merc with suspicion, as the advantage is huge, but I wouldn't expect a protest very soon. They would have to be somewhat specific in their protest so to request a 'clarification'. Even if eventually it may end up with guesswork anyway, it has at least to be plausible, and there are several more sensors and restrictions to take into account (and potential ways to get around them). However, some not-so-subtle innuendo may start sooner.

Well, we will have to see about that! Personally I think you’d hear more noise coming from Horner and Marko in particular if they suspected any sort of shenanigans, and it does sound like you’re talking in hope more than expectation!

What’s key is that Ferrari and RBR have clearly both taken sideways if not backward steps so far this season which has made the gap to Merc look larger than expected, but that’s an issue with those teams rather than Merc. Usually you’d expect all teams to shave a similar time off the previous year. Merc have found a second or two but it looks like not only have the rivals not made a gain, there’s almost a regression there. Ferrari with their engine power and RBR maybe going too aggressive with chassis/aero design?

Zibby has put us somewhat better than me so I wont just copy what he’s said, but I’m not sure I’d expect any challenges incoming.

[holeindalip]

1.1 second faster then last year pole position, 1.3 improvement for L.H. and 1.1 for V.B.

For sure FIA did not see the smoke , and obviously no need of any investigation on MB engine, the only one with more power compared to last year engine... the only chance is another Judas

If any other team or the FIA were suspicious, then we’d know about it- like with the Ferrari last year. The other teams’ silence suggests a lack of suspicion of foul play. We already know Red Bull are very trigger happy and very publicly vocal if they suspect anything improper. Silence speaks volumes in this case.

I always feel there are lot of grey areas when it comes to Mercedes when it was their tyre wear with Parelli and the testing and all of sudden every team struggling except Mercedes , when it came to their qualifier modes, when it came to DAS or the rumor about Mercedes is burning engine oil as fuel in past. Might be all is fine and they are just geniuses but what i always wonder is they never get investigated, everything legal everything clean.

When were Mercedes ever in the talks of oil burning, Ferrari were the ones with an extra oil tank onboard, anyways I suspect red bull and Ferrari are working ferociously on their own cars before worrying about Mercedes....

[e30ernest]

If any other team or the FIA were suspicious, then we’d know about it- like with the Ferrari last year. The other teams’ silence suggests a lack of suspicion of foul play. We already know Red Bull are very trigger happy and very publicly vocal if they suspect anything improper. Silence speaks volumes in this case.

I always feel there are lot of grey areas when it comes to Mercedes when it was their tyre wear with Parelli and the testing and all of sudden every team struggling except Mercedes , when it came to their qualifier modes, when it came to DAS or the rumor about Mercedes is burning engine oil as fuel in past. Might be all is fine and they are just geniuses but what i always wonder is they never get investigated, everything legal everything clean.

When were Mercedes ever in the talks of oil burning, Ferrari were the ones with an extra oil tank onboard, anyways I suspect red bull and Ferrari are working ferociously on their own cars before worrying about Mercedes....

If I recall correctly, Mercedes also burned oil.

Mind you, I think it is unfair to say the FIA are super lenient to the Mercs. They've already banned some of their huge innovations, the rule changes that affected outwash wings should have also hurt the Mercs given they were one of the modern pioneers of that concept (BrawnGP).

Until the other teams are able to lodge a protest, I'd say the car is likely within the framework of the rules. Maybe they found loopholes, but exploiting loopholes (like in the case of DAS) doesn't make the car illegal.

I think other teams should look into Merc's management structure as well. The Merc leadership is obviously doing something right to keep up their level of performance for this long.

[Gr1ff]

I always feel there are lot of grey areas when it comes to Mercedes when it was their tyre wear with Parelli and the testing and all of sudden every team struggling except Mercedes , when it came to their qualifier modes, when it came to DAS or the rumor about Mercedes is burning engine oil as fuel in past. Might be all is fine and they are just geniuses but what i always wonder is they never get investigated, everything legal everything clean.

When were Mercedes ever in the talks of oil burning, Ferrari were the ones with an extra oil tank onboard, anyways I suspect red bull and Ferrari are working ferociously on their own cars before worrying about Mercedes....

If I recall correctly, Mercedes also burned oil.

Mind you, I think it is unfair to say the FIA are super lenient to the Mercs. They've already banned some of their huge innovations, the rule changes that affected outwash wings should have also hurt the Mercs given they were one of the modern pioneers of that concept (BrawnGP).

Until the other teams are able to lodge a protest, I'd say the car is likely within the framework of the rules. Maybe they found loopholes, but exploiting loopholes (like in the case of DAS) doesn't make the car illegal.

I think other teams should look into Merc's management structure as well. The Merc leadership is obviously doing something right to keep up their level of performance for this long.

Merc leadership comment is spot on and has been amplified with covid resulting in the huge gap this year.