Why is KERS restricted?

[danceman]

Many thanks. Read most of KERs threads. I found a quote from Charlie Whiting on the FIA site at the start of last season, sums up a lot;-
“I think KERS is really interesting. Apart from the fact it sends the right message, recovering otherwise wasted energy, I think it is the future of the sport and the Formula One systems will be amazing. There’s more to it than just straight lap time. It will be interesting to see how the drivers use their extra power strategically.” Whilst the use of KERS is optional, Whiting expects the major teams, including Ferrari, McLaren, BMW and Renault, to be using the system from the first race."
I now realise my idea of getting energy from the engine whilst braking is outside the scope of KERS. This would need a new regulation? Maybe EESS engine energy storage system?
Make both unrestricted and let battle commence!

[Edis]

Many good points in replies. Leading me to think short term future might be a petrol/electric car. Smaller engine, could be diesel, driving generator. All drive from electric motors? Most braking by regeneration. Keeping high car weight would not mean unrealistic light weight batteries. This would be driven from the saving in starting fuel weight and smaller tanks. Is this sufficient? Maybe there should there be a minimum mpg leading to a fuel allowance per race to archive this?

For roadcar use, the near future solution will be downsized diesels and petrol engines, a growing number or petrol engines will be equipped with turbochargers and direct injection and a growing number of cars will be equipped with some sort of hybrid technology with increased use of electric engine accesories. It will take long, probably late 2020's until plug in hybrids will have a large market share.

Racing cars with KERS will be classed as 'parallel hybrids', so most of the power will go through a mechanical tranmission. To convert mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical again, as in a series hybrid, serves no purpose in a racing car. That sort of hybrid powertrain is more suitable to say, a city bus.

In racing cars the battery problem can be solved by using flywheels instead. In racing cars KERS power density is the limiting factor, not energy density. The situation is similar with production car hybrids, while electric cars are limited by energy density.

Fuel consumption limits leads to bad racing, it's better to limit the fuel flow to the engine. That way the drivers will go as fast as they can for the whole race. With a limit, the race turns into an economy race instead. Go too fast and you won't finish because the car runs out of fuel.

[autogyro]

Many good points in replies. Leading me to think short term future might be a petrol/electric car. Smaller engine, could be diesel, driving generator. All drive from electric motors? Most braking by regeneration. Keeping high car weight would not mean unrealistic light weight batteries. This would be driven from the saving in starting fuel weight and smaller tanks. Is this sufficient? Maybe there should there be a minimum mpg leading to a fuel allowance per race to archive this?

For roadcar use, the near future solution will be downsized diesels and petrol engines, a growing number or petrol engines will be equipped with turbochargers and direct injection and a growing number of cars will be equipped with some sort of hybrid technology with increased use of electric engine accesories. It will take long, probably late 2020's until plug in hybrids will have a large market share.

Racing cars with KERS will be classed as 'parallel hybrids', so most of the power will go through a mechanical tranmission. To convert mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical again, as in a series hybrid, serves no purpose in a racing car. That sort of hybrid powertrain is more suitable to say, a city bus.

In racing cars the battery problem can be solved by using flywheels instead. In racing cars KERS power density is the limiting factor, not energy density. The situation is similar with production car hybrids, while electric cars are limited by energy density.

Fuel consumption limits leads to bad racing, it's better to limit the fuel flow to the engine. That way the drivers will go as fast as they can for the whole race. With a limit, the race turns into an economy race instead. Go too fast and you won't finish because the car runs out of fuel.

It makes no difference if a hybrid system is parallel or series as to how and where the energy harvested is stored. Flywheel storage uses an electrical generator/motor just as batteries do.
All vehicle racing is a form of economy competition, whether it is fuel, tyres or just driver stamina.

[Edis]

Many good points in replies. Leading me to think short term future might be a petrol/electric car. Smaller engine, could be diesel, driving generator. All drive from electric motors? Most braking by regeneration. Keeping high car weight would not mean unrealistic light weight batteries. This would be driven from the saving in starting fuel weight and smaller tanks. Is this sufficient? Maybe there should there be a minimum mpg leading to a fuel allowance per race to archive this?

For roadcar use, the near future solution will be downsized diesels and petrol engines, a growing number or petrol engines will be equipped with turbochargers and direct injection and a growing number of cars will be equipped with some sort of hybrid technology with increased use of electric engine accesories. It will take long, probably late 2020's until plug in hybrids will have a large market share.

Racing cars with KERS will be classed as 'parallel hybrids', so most of the power will go through a mechanical tranmission. To convert mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical again, as in a series hybrid, serves no purpose in a racing car. That sort of hybrid powertrain is more suitable to say, a city bus.

In racing cars the battery problem can be solved by using flywheels instead. In racing cars KERS power density is the limiting factor, not energy density. The situation is similar with production car hybrids, while electric cars are limited by energy density.

Fuel consumption limits leads to bad racing, it's better to limit the fuel flow to the engine. That way the drivers will go as fast as they can for the whole race. With a limit, the race turns into an economy race instead. Go too fast and you won't finish because the car runs out of fuel.

It makes no difference if a hybrid system is parallel or series as to how and where the energy harvested is stored. Flywheel storage uses an electrical generator/motor just as batteries do.
All vehicle racing is a form of economy competition, whether it is fuel, tyres or just driver stamina.

Flywheel storage always use an electrical machine? No, that isn't always the case. The flywheel can just aswell use a mechanical tranmission. There are other ways to store energy too. The KERS system employed by McLaren about a decade ago used hydraulics I believe. A hydraulic system can store energy in a mechanical spring or a pneumatic chamber. There are many ways to convert and store energy for KERS, electric machines are certainly not the only solution. And in the case of racing cars, they have always used the 'parallel' configuration, where parallel describes the energy flow inside the car.

No, all vehicle racing is not a form of economy competition.

[autogyro]

Hi Edis
Williams have dropped the CVT Toloroidal unit as a method of converting braking energy to energy stored in a flywheel and then returning the energy to the vehicle geartrain through the CVT, they now use electric.
CVTs and TVTs whether for this purpose or as main transmissions of engine torque, use far to much energy to move and hold the variable drive components in their design. They are also far to heavy. Weight is the main problem with the hydrolic and pneumatic systems of energy recovery as well, mainly weight needed to maintain a reliable seal at high pressures. High pressure hoses are of course much heavier than cables.

My suggestion that all racing is a form of economy competition is if I am honest more word semantics than a true definition. I will give you that.
However, there is a dimension of fuel and other 'savings' in all racing.
It simply needs regulation to direct racing towards energy efficiency rather than pure power delivery. I think we would agree on this, if the racing can be kept exciting and competitive. What regulations is the question?
The electric shift energy recovery unit I have patented, is both parallel and series in operation, mainly because it IS the 7 speed stepped gearbox.

[Richard]

The electric shift energy recovery unit I have patented ....

... is discussed over here viewtopic.php?p=152288#p152288

Interesting that it is now patented, look forward to the conversation continuing on the other thread.

[autogyro]

The electric shift energy recovery unit I have patented ....

... is discussed over here viewtopic.php?p=152288#p152288

Interesting that it is now patented, look forward to the conversation continuing on the other thread.

No intention of derailing this thread, it was only mentioned for definition purposes for Edis.

'Why is KERS restricted'?
Because Ferrari and the big car companies and oil barons want to delay the inevitable development of energy saving and alternate energy development.
So far the FOTA attack has delayed road car development by at least five years and the current 'attack' against Toyota and their Hybrid technology could well add another few years. The cost is of course coming directly out of your pockets.