Recent performances of Felipe Massa

[andrew]

He was always fast but accident prone. A year out as Ferrari test driver with one on one tutoring from Schumacher worked wonders.

Sure his contract has been extended until the end of 2012 but that means very little. Didn't Raikkonen have a contract for last year? Point is, if Ferrari want rid of a driver they have deep enough pockets to make it happen.

So a contract extension and job security means very little? Strange. I cant think of anything more important to Massa.

To add to this, I heard earlier that Massa has been told by Ferrari that he has to have an exceptional year to secure his seat for 2012. Not exactly job security is it?

[ringo]

For the Massa excuse makers, when did he become very fast exactly? Was he very fast in 2006 when Schumacher dominated him? or did it suddenly happen in 2007?

What does it say about Schumacher and Kimi that they performed very differently relative to Massa?

So your saying Felipe is a karma chameleon?

... his speed comes and goes?.

I'm not a Massa fan neither Kimi, i couldn't care less if Kimi is overrated either. What's true though is that neither driver is crap and both are championship quality drivers.

Check Massa's stats. In no way was he slow or an underperformer pre hungary 2009.

Being a shumacher or alonso fan is clouding your judgement. I care nothing for shu, alonso, massa or kimi. Massa's past performances shows he was very much a fast driver. I don't know about now, but he had some amazing pole positions and race finishes in the past.
You don't narrowly miss out a championship by being slow or error prone.

[mx_tifoso]

I don't think anyone can argue whether he is a very quick driver, but what hinders him in the long run is that he is inconsistent and has difficulty adapting to different situations. IMO.

[tarrant]

For the Massa excuse makers, when did he become very fast exactly? Was he very fast in 2006 when Schumacher dominated him? or did it suddenly happen in 2007?

What does it say about Schumacher and Kimi that they performed very differently relative to Massa?

So your saying Felipe is a karma chameleon?

... his speed comes and goes?.

I'm not a Massa fan neither Kimi, i couldn't care less if Kimi is overrated either. What's true though is that neither driver is crap and both are championship quality drivers.

Check Massa's stats. In no way was he slow or an underperformer pre hungary 2009.

Being a shumacher or alonso fan is clouding your judgement. I care nothing for shu, alonso, massa or kimi. Massa's past performances shows he was very much a fast driver. I don't know about now, but he had some amazing pole positions and race finishes in the past.
You don't narrowly miss out a championship by being slow or error prone.

You are saying his speed comes and goes not me. Your saying his speed improved in 2007 08, 09, then reduced in 2010. Im saying any drivers raw speed is a constant, and something you are born with. Your talent doesnt improve.

When you say massa and kimi are not crap and both world championship calibre drivers, I agree. They are not crap, but compared to someone like Alonso they basically are, because he is a great driver. Its all relative. A Ferrari F50 is one of the fastest road cars in the world, but against an F1 car it would be thrashed, so does that really make an F50 crap?

[ringo]

You are saying his speed comes and goes not me. Your saying his speed improved in 2007 08, 09, then reduced in 2010. Im saying any drivers raw speed is a constant, and something you are born with. Your talent doesnt improve.

Well if you're the best piano player in the world,then your hands get crushed. Your skill and talent wont be constant.

When you say massa and kimi are not crap and both world championship calibre drivers, I agree. They are not crap, but compared to someone like Alonso they basically are, because he is a great driver. Its all relative. A Ferrari F50 is one of the fastest road cars in the world, but against an F1 car it would be thrashed, so does that really make an F50 crap?

Did kimi drive with Alonso before? That's the unknown. Alonso is very good but i don't think he's that great that kimi would be rubbish before him. Maybe, maybe not, i don't know and i'm not a blinded kimi fan, but you cannot confirm it.

You just can't take Massa's accident out of the equation. It doesn't make Alonso look as great as you think but it cannot be ignored.

For all we know Massa probably can't feel the soles of his feet.
You just can't know how a brain injury affects a driver. The brain is too complex.

But anyway lets see what happens in Malaysia, The great one may just be beaten by rubbish Fellipe.

[tarrant]

Did kimi drive with Alonso before? That's the unknown. Alonso is very good but i don't think he's that great that kimi would be rubbish before him. Maybe, maybe not, i don't know and i'm not a blinded kimi fan, but you cannot confirm it.

You just can't take Massa's accident out of the equation. It doesn't make Alonso look as great as you think but it cannot be ignored.

They both shared the same team mate in consecutive years, in the same team, thats a very good benchmark to evaluate them. Kimi was no faster than Massa, while Alonso is much faster than Massa. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to deduce this means Alonso is much faster than Kimi. So was Schumacher.

For all we know Massa probably can't feel the soles of his feet.
You just can't know how a brain injury affects a driver. The brain is too complex.
.

You dont seem to be aware of medical tests, this is 2011, there are very sophisticated ways of looking into a persons brain and functions. According to them Massa is 100% fit.

[Tamburello]

Im saying any drivers raw speed is a constant, and something you are born with. Your talent doesnt improve.

I'm sorry but these two sentences are a load of hogwash.

[tarrant]

Im saying any drivers raw speed is a constant, and something you are born with. Your talent doesnt improve.

I'm sorry but these two sentences are a load of hogwash.

You didnt try to explain why?

[Tamburello]

Im saying any drivers raw speed is a constant, and something you are born with. Your talent doesnt improve.

I'm sorry but these two sentences are a load of hogwash.

You didnt try to explain why?

I can accept that an individual may have certain inherent qualities that makes for a good sportsman but that is only a base. The rest is work. And 'talent' and performance, can be gained as it can be lost. 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration, and all that jazz...

[tarrant]

I can accept that an individual may have certain inherent qualities that makes for a good sportsman but that is only a base. The rest is work. And 'talent' and performance, can be gained as it can be lost. 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration, and all that jazz...

It depends on the sport imo. In Sports like basketball, tennis, soccer, you can improve your performance through training, like your kicking, or back hand, but F1 drivers dont train because what they do is all about pure talent, that comes naturally or doesnt come at all and by the time they reach F1 they know the basics of driving from childhood almost, thats why speed doesnt change, apart from the very early stages of a career when they are adjusting to the sport or late in their career when they are over the hill.

[myurr]

Did kimi drive with Alonso before? That's the unknown. Alonso is very good but i don't think he's that great that kimi would be rubbish before him. Maybe, maybe not, i don't know and i'm not a blinded kimi fan, but you cannot confirm it.

You just can't take Massa's accident out of the equation. It doesn't make Alonso look as great as you think but it cannot be ignored.

They both shared the same team mate in consecutive years, in the same team, thats a very good benchmark to evaluate them. Kimi was no faster than Massa, while Alonso is much faster than Massa. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to deduce this means Alonso is much faster than Kimi. So was Schumacher.

Sorry but it's not clear cut at all.

The 2008 car did not particularly suit Kimi but was perfect for Massa so he absolutely shone, plus after his title in 2007 I personally believe that Kimi lost interest in F1 and was just going through the motions.

2009 was not a good year to judge them at all - the car was a dog and Massa missed half the season. Alonso didn't exactly shine in 09 either. Look at how Fisichella struggled in that car with Kimi comfortably outpacing him.

In 2010 it's clear that something wasn't right with Massa, be it the car, his mental state, or the repercussions of his accident. He provides a poor benchmark by which to compare with Alonso.

I'm not really a fan of Kimi or Massa, but I respect them both as talented drivers. Is Alonso better? Yup, he sure is. He's far more motivated and determined, and he's probably slightly faster than Massa at his best, and more consistent than Kimi at his best. Over a season I think Alonso at his best would beat either of them. But he wouldn't blow them away.

[myurr]

I can accept that an individual may have certain inherent qualities that makes for a good sportsman but that is only a base. The rest is work. And 'talent' and performance, can be gained as it can be lost. 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration, and all that jazz...

It depends on the sport imo. In Sports like basketball, tennis, soccer, you can improve your performance through training, like your kicking, or back hand, but F1 drivers dont train because what they do is all about pure talent, that comes naturally or doesnt come at all and by the time they reach F1 they know the basics of driving from childhood almost, thats why speed doesnt change, apart from the very early stages of a career when they are adjusting to the sport or late in their career when they are over the hill.

What do you call all the years in the junior formula, all the time spent in the simulator, etc. F1 drivers train just like any other sportsmen. They all have a natural flair for driving and certain in built qualities that help them, but they weren't born F1 drivers and they don't get by on talent alone.

Otherwise they all would enter F1 as rookies at the peak of their game and not progress - something that is demonstrably wrong.

[speedsense]

Im saying any drivers raw speed is a constant, and something you are born with. Your talent doesnt improve.

I'm sorry but these two sentences are a load of hogwash.

You didnt try to explain why?

How many dad's of F1 champion's are faster than their kids, if your born with it than dad should be bad fast....Mr. (elder) Schumacher should be bad fast cause his genes are just right...Mom is probably tearing through SPA in the rain....
What happened to Ralf?....
Gee, if this were true, then Fangio's family gene's would worth millions or billions by now...
Sorry, just like any sport this is learned....not a gift, but a gift that is well deserved after a long trip....not something found in a throw away diaper....

[tarrant]

Sorry but it's not clear cut at all.

The 2008 car did not particularly suit Kimi but was perfect for Massa so he absolutely shone, plus after his title in 2007 I personally believe that Kimi lost interest in F1 and was just going through the motions.

2009 was not a good year to judge them at all - the car was a dog and Massa missed half the season. Alonso didn't exactly shine in 09 either. Look at how Fisichella struggled in that car with Kimi comfortably outpacing him.

Fact is in every year they were together they were generally evenly matched in speed, even in 2007 it took Kimi until very late in the season to shake Massa. Why wasnt 2009 a good year to judge just because the car was not the best? Talent shines even more in poor cars and Massa was comfortably beating Kimi until his accident.

Fisichella was a few months away from retirement and dropped into a new team with zero testing he should not even be a part of the discussion. You are just making excuses for Kimi. The car didnt suit him, lost motivation blah blah.

In 2010 it's clear that something wasn't right with Massa, be it the car, his mental state, or the repercussions of his accident. He provides a poor benchmark by which to compare with Alonso.

No its not clear something was not right, thats just what you think because Massa did not perform as you expected.

I'm not really a fan of Kimi or Massa, but I respect them both as talented drivers. Is Alonso better? Yup, he sure is. He's far more motivated and determined, and he's probably slightly faster than Massa at his best, and more consistent than Kimi at his best. Over a season I think Alonso at his best would beat either of them. But he wouldn't blow them away.

Massa at his best? I dont know what that even means, but I do find it funny that your speaking of a hypothetical match up between Massa and Alonso despite this already happening last year and Alonso blowing him away. This is just pure denial of reality, and creating your own.

[tarrant]

I can accept that an individual may have certain inherent qualities that makes for a good sportsman but that is only a base. The rest is work. And 'talent' and performance, can be gained as it can be lost. 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration, and all that jazz...

It depends on the sport imo. In Sports like basketball, tennis, soccer, you can improve your performance through training, like your kicking, or back hand, but F1 drivers dont train because what they do is all about pure talent, that comes naturally or doesnt come at all and by the time they reach F1 they know the basics of driving from childhood almost, thats why speed doesnt change, apart from the very early stages of a career when they are adjusting to the sport or late in their career when they are over the hill.

What do you call all the years in the junior formula, all the time spent in the simulator, etc. F1 drivers train just like any other sportsmen. They all have a natural flair for driving and certain in built qualities that help them, but they weren't born F1 drivers and they don't get by on talent alone.

Otherwise they all would enter F1 as rookies at the peak of their game and not progress - something that is demonstrably wrong.

Junior forumula is the training ground but we are talking about F1 drivers, they dont train their driving skills, the simulaters and testing is car testing, not specific driver training.

Im not disputing rookies dont improve, Im talking about raw speed, not overall driver performance. Drivers become more consistent over their careers, but if your half a second slower than a team mate that will never change.