Button Proves Some Right

[SiLo]

That seems a twisted account of things to me. Hamilton and Button are able to race each other on track as they both give each other room. Button never just turns in to Hamilton like other drivers have. Take Monaco where Hamilton came in for a lot of criticism. Both Maldonado and Massa turned in earlier during those manoeuvres than they had in previous laps - was Hamilton a bit optimistic sticking the car into those gaps? Yes he was, but at the same time both those drivers tried to turn in on him to aggressively defend from the overtake, making it a combination of both that caused each accident. Hamilton didn't hit Schumacher when making a similar overtake not because he did anything differently, but because Schumacher didn't turn in on him.

I don't disagree with that at all. It's a shame that LH's reaction to the penalties prevented many from looking at the fact, that he legitimately got side by side and then wasn't given room in both cases.
However in Nurburgring LH literally bumped Webber off the track in T2 while overtaking him (MW was on the outside), also drove Massa off the track at Silverstone exiting Club on the last lap. On both occasions there was no adequate reaction from the stewards, commentators or the public. Because that's now regarded as normal practice.

The flip side are the aggressive defenders, those that would rather clip another car or plain turn into them to prevent an overtake.

I don't see much difference between defence and attack in this context. The current level of safety is causing both defending and attacking drivers to act the way that may cause an accident, do things that most wouldn't do 30 years ago.

Also how many injuries or deaths did Senna or Schumacher cause through their "win at all costs even if they hurt people" attitude?

Clearly not enough.

Would like to point out that Hamilton had the inside line in both instances, and as we have seem millions of times in F1, was entirely within his rights to run the other car out of road, the reason they ended up going off is because they were too stupid enough to realise what was about to happen.

Case in point, Alonso could of done the same thing to Hamilton but didn't even give it a try, would we be moaning if he did the same thing? Probably not.

[strad]

KIDS!

[Pandamasque]

Because that's now regarded as normal practice.

Would like to point out that Hamilton had the inside line in both instances, and as we have seem millions of times in F1, was entirely within his rights to run the other car out of road, the reason they ended up going off is because they were too stupid enough to realise what was about to happen.

You just proved my point. Under NO circumstances you are allowed to run another car off the road. You have the inside line? So stay there until you're fully ahead or behind another car. By not leaving enough room for an opponent within the track you effectively cause an accident.

Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such more than one change of direction to defend a position, deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the stewards of the meeting.

Case in point, Alonso could of done the same thing to Hamilton but didn't even give it a try...

Because that was the only thing he could do within the rules. He realized he got caught napping and it was too late to block. The art of defence is not to allow the opponent to get alongside (without weaving) or force him into a slower line through the series of turns. That's when we see this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2tIFxSEGA[/youtube]
Can you imagine that with Buemi vs. Maldonado?
Neither can I.

[beelsebob]

That seems a twisted account of things to me. Hamilton and Button are able to race each other on track as they both give each other room. Button never just turns in to Hamilton like other drivers have. Take Monaco where Hamilton came in for a lot of criticism. Both Maldonado and Massa turned in earlier during those manoeuvres than they had in previous laps - was Hamilton a bit optimistic sticking the car into those gaps? Yes he was, but at the same time both those drivers tried to turn in on him to aggressively defend from the overtake, making it a combination of both that caused each accident. Hamilton didn't hit Schumacher when making a similar overtake not because he did anything differently, but because Schumacher didn't turn in on him.

I don't disagree with that at all. It's a shame that LH's reaction to the penalties prevented many from looking at the fact, that he legitimately got side by side and then wasn't given room in both cases.

Pardon? Every video I've seen has shown Webber having a car's width on the outside of Hamilton before the white line. Given that the track only ends when all your wheels are off the track, I hardly see how this is running him off the track.

Re Massa – Even Ferrari agreed that there was nothing Hamilton could do to avoid the crash on cold tyres and cold breaks, and in the final corner, Massa was off the track way before Hamilton got close to the edge. Hamilton just saw Massa was off the track and took the normal racing line.

[beelsebob]

The art of defence is not to allow the opponent to get alongside (without weaving) or force him into a slower line through the series of turns. That's when we see this:
<video>
Can you imagine that with Buemi vs. Maldonado?
Neither can I.

Uhhh... so...
1:54 - "And, Villeneuve has had to go wide as Arnoux is on the inside"
1:59 - Arnoux bangs wheels with Villeneuve pushing him wider with only 1 car width left.
2:01 - Villeneuve pushes Arnoux fully off the track with Villeneuve's right wheel actually over the white line too - no room at all left.
2:08 - Villeneuve bangs wheels whit Arnoux trying to push him off the inside of the corner - results in him going wide instead.

If this is meant to be an example of how to overtake and defend properly then...
1) I agree wholeheartedly.
2) Great, you agree that forcing people wide is valid

[megz]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDlLOrDZlyM[/youtube]

Look from 1.50 onward for Lewis' pass on Glock... you can't say he left him room here.

[beelsebob]

Look from 1.50 onward for Lewis' pass on Glock... you can't say he left him room here.

Lawl... Did you even listen to the commentators? "Hamilton has to leave space, otherwise he'll just be spun around". He left a good chunk of space on the inside there, Glock chose not to use it.

Edit: Rewatched it, and now I see what you're referring to. And no – at all times Glock had a tyre on the track, which counts as on the track. Therefore he didn't force anyone off the track there.

[Pierce89]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDlLOrDZlyM[/youtube]

Look from 1.50 onward for Lewis' pass on Glock... you can't say he left him room here.

I used to love watching Hamilton. This video shows the REAL Lewis. Scince o9, I think the pressure has weighed on him. Now, when he tries to drive like that, he starts hitting people. If Mclaren can keep the 26 good enough to relieve some of the pressure on Lewis, we might see this type of driving again. But we haven't lately.

[SiLo]

Because that's now regarded as normal practice.

Would like to point out that Hamilton had the inside line in both instances, and as we have seem millions of times in F1, was entirely within his rights to run the other car out of road, the reason they ended up going off is because they were too stupid enough to realise what was about to happen.

You just proved my point. Under NO circumstances you are allowed to run another car off the road. You have the inside line? So stay there until you're fully ahead or behind another car. By not leaving enough room for an opponent within the track you effectively cause an accident.

Considering the driver that has lost the racing line and is in the weaker position can either:
a) Hold strong and stay put, the guy trying to push you wide isn't going to simply drive into you.
b) Touch the brakes a little and let the guy have the room to push you wider.
c) crash into him.

Considering c probably isn't the best option, the only thing anyone can do is either a or b. Anyway, back on topic, I think the safety of the tracks also means drivers are willing to be more aggressive, knowing they won't push someone into the barrier because there is a huge are of runoff.

[wesley123]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDlLOrDZlyM[/youtube]

Look from 1.50 onward for Lewis' pass on Glock... you can't say he left him room here.

I used to love watching Hamilton. This video shows the REAL Lewis. Scince o9, I think the pressure has weighed on him. Now, when he tries to drive like that, he starts hitting people. If Mclaren can keep the 26 good enough to relieve some of the pressure on Lewis, we might see this type of driving again. But we haven't lately.

I can agree with that, although he drove some really good races this year. China was a good one, germany too and Hungary went very well until mid race when tactics and a mistake by him ruined his race.

Why we dont see races like that by Hamilton anymore is fairly simple, he didnt start from the back like he did there. The Hamilton like we saw there is imo coming back though

[strad]

Given that the track only ends when all your wheels are off the track, I hardly see how this is running him off the track.

Sorry, that's wrong.
Those white lines represent the edge of the track and they should not be pushed or drive beyond that point.
That is why I would like to see huge kerbs that they couldn't go over without damaging the car.
But, that said,. it is not what happens so much as intent.
Today's racing is full of what used (before Senna) to be called rough driving.
Senna and his protege may not have killed anybody but that's not their fault.
Go read about Senna in in the lower formulas. Ask Brundle how he drove. Ask Calvin Fish. Ask any of his fellows he regularly put on the grass so he could win.
I wish people would just go on the adulation of people like Steve Hinton and look to the truth about the man..A great driver but a highly flawed person.
BTW, the original point was that the cars are so safe that the drivers do things and take chances they never would if they thought for an instant that they would be hurt. That in fact is the gripe; The only thing that they really care about is if they get hurt, not the competitors. They never give that a thought.

[wesley123]

Given that the track only ends when all your wheels are off the track, I hardly see how this is running him off the track.

Sorry, that's wrong.
Those white lines represent the edge of the track and they should not be pushed or drive beyond that point.

So F1 drivers are actuallyu off track approx. 30% of the lap is what you re saying? Wouldnt that simply be corner cutting?

Imo you are off track if you drive off with 4 wheels, the F1 real timing automaticly shows yellow when someone is off track, if with 2 wheels hitting a curb is off track then that thing must be constanty yellow wouldnt it?

[beelsebob]

Given that the track only ends when all your wheels are off the track, I hardly see how this is running him off the track.

Sorry, that's wrong.
Those white lines represent the edge of the track and they should not be pushed or drive beyond that point.

No, no it's not:

20.3 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

[megz]

Look from 1.50 onward for Lewis' pass on Glock... you can't say he left him room here.

Lawl... Did you even listen to the commentators? "Hamilton has to leave space, otherwise he'll just be spun around". He left a good chunk of space on the inside there, Glock chose not to use it.

Edit: Rewatched it, and now I see what you're referring to. And no – at all times Glock had a tyre on the track, which counts as on the track. Therefore he didn't force anyone off the track there.

You don't think that's a touch dangerous, 3 wheels on the sodden grass at 2.31 into the video? You can also see that the dry line is about two car widths wide AND that good chunk of space on the inside there is on Hamilton's side of the circuit, Glock can't get there without a) backing off while being side by side or b) becoming semi-solid and driving through a McLaren MP4-23

In my opinion the driver who has access to the most space has the onus on them to provide racing room (again IMO this is enough for all 4 wheels within the white lines denoting the circuit.) this allows the drivers to duke it out on track without any forcing off circuit - I can understand forcing a driver off line but not off circuit.

[Robert.Gardner]

Its the incredible grip that the aero provides, and the fantastic braking of the carbon brakes, thats makes the risks too large to take the chances.

How often do we have a driver with fading brakes (not failing)?

Removing a lot more aero, and iron brakes would lead to much longer braking distances, where the drivers could go deeper in a few corners, but not repeatedly without brake fade, and more overtaking. Corner speed would be slower, grip more predictable (or the loss of grip). The car in front would also not cause such a loss of aero when following it closely.