Transferring people to transfer success?

[munudeges]

I said it didn't automatically lead to success.

Doesn't mean anything. You get the right people, stuff generally works. Pretty easy to understand.

I'm not sure Gascoyne can be considered in the same category as Newey, Barnard, or Muarry. We could add Byrne.

Gascoyne was basically behind Alonso's titles. The car within the set of regulations at the time was set on a development path around 2002/2003 that lasted long after Gascoyne's departure - aerodynamics, weight distribution, everything. You have to read between the lines. Ditto Adrian Newey for 2007/2008. When the regulations changed things went downhill.

So we have just 4 people in several decades of F1 who are able to replicate success.

You're making this sound more complicated than it is. It's about working out who has really done what at a time when things have been heading in the right direction. Look at James Key at Sauber or James Allison at Lotus. Red Bull identified Rob Marshall as a large reason why Renault were so good mechanically for a long time. It's no use throwing your arms up in the air and saying "How many Adrian Neweys are there?". That's not the point. You've got to look long and hard at who is out there when a team shows an upswing in form and put complete faith in them in specific areas. Unfortunately you can get people who ride on the coattails of others, mentioning no names of course.

[Richard]

Unfortunately you can get people who ride on the coattails of others, mentioning no names of course.

To be honest I think we're probably of the same opinion, although I'd use less emotive version such as ... competent people in an extraordinary team can appear to be extraordinary. Put them in a different context and you'll find they are ordinary after all.

Anyway this is getting way off topic, but a fascinating conversation. For example while Gascoigne deservedly earned a very good reputation, but has he been able to replicate that? He's not grabbing headlines with Caterham, the power steering problems being a case in point.

I'll take this to a new thread..... Done!

ps - I agree that we'd better not mention a certain name....

[marcush.]

You first have to understand who is driving the success really .Rarely you got a person who is guiding the people in a perfect ways AND who is bubbling the mega ideas one after another constantly.
So if you are in need of ideas and creativity you might hunt for different people than in case your bunch of people needs direction and leadership.
I´d think in most cases the teams leaders stand in their own ways when deciding on hireing people.If you think you need Newey it does not make sense to hire Willis instead...but you need to hire Adrian or someone who you think has the potential (=Byrne ) or someone who shows similar promise .
Interestingly in a world with so many graduates are emerging highly educated in the right fields and everything available in terms of sim and technology it seems to get harder and harder to really promote genuine design talent.

Newey is in my perception a lone woolf unables to guide a group of people in the usual sense .He is an inspiration ,yes but is he someone who actually lives project management principles or would trying to restrain him into these strict envelope make him completely useless?

Barnard was another one of the impossible ones with employeees if I´m correct .he had a strong idea of what was wrong or right and either you followed his agenda or you had a massive issue -you were shown the door..From his school A LOT of very good people have emerged -Mike Coughlin as an example , who´s expertise seems to show already at Williams.

[Jersey Tom]

One man does not make an engineering team, and designing/developing a car is done by an engineering team.

[munudeges]

... competent people in an extraordinary team can appear to be extraordinary. Put them in a different context and you'll find they are ordinary after all.

If a team is extraordinary then there are people who make it so. You can only cut it so many ways.

[Cam]

Red Bull may have given Newey an open docket without interference, Ross Brawn may have the complete opposite.

Ross Brawn is the team principal.

Yes, he is. The example I was attempting to offer was to suggest that key people may have different scopes of what they are allowed to do - regardless of where they sit in the chain. Even Team Principals report to someone. Limit that scope and you limit the possible talent they can offer.

Look at the reason Newey left McLaren - he simply wasn't allowed to fly, yet has flourished at Red Bull.

He wasn't entirely unsuccessful at McLaren, despite not being able to get his own way a lot of the time.

Again, I think you've missed the point I was offering. Newey at McLaren is a far cry from Newey at Red Bull. Consider why? Both are great teams, with big budgets, experience, lots of talented people, so what makes the difference? I was suggesting that Newey was really able to fly at Red Bull as he was 'given wings' (excuse the pun) by the top brass. Maybe Brawn had his wings clipped? This could certainly be a reason for failing to meet ones own potential.

The fact is, none of us know.

Claiming that none of us know is not a great excuse. The results are in front of us. Results over a lengthy period of time just don't lie.

There is no excuse, just as there is no clear answer as to why Mercedes haven't dominated. It's all a bit too easy to sit on the outside and cast judgement when you don't have all the facts. Rather than persecute Brawn, I have offered a genuine plausible reason why he doesn't seem to be excelling. But rather than discuss the 'reasons' and try to discover the 'facts', I guess we're all doomed to listen to bad mouthing for the sake of stirring up the blood.

If you have any actual plausible hypotheses, I'd be happy to discuss further.

[Richard]

Please don't bog the conversation down with Brawn and Merc. Posts on that topic will go to the abyss.

There have been plenty of other teams and engineers in F1 history without needing to get into the Merc mire.

[Jersey Tom]

Still. Bottom line, individuals do not engineer the whole damn car. It is a team effort. You need talented "grunt level" engineers to be able to achieve concepts or goals. You need funding. You need facilities and fabricators capable of building the design and updates in a timely manner.

Transferring talent may give you better potential for success but it does not automatically equal achieving success.

[munudeges]

My 'plausible hypothesis' is based on results, therefore reality. I'm just funny like that.

[Jersey Tom]

My 'plausible hypothesis' is based on results, therefore reality. I'm just funny like that.

You are basically saying that correlation and causation are the same thing, which they are not. A deadly pitfall.