F1 Radiators

[marcush.]

monsto,I didn´t mean the boiling of the fluid is not of importance,
of course you have to avoid boiling ,especially in the cylinderhead (Hot spots)and you are right boiling water is inhibiting cooling at all...
If the Temp rises above the boiling point you have several choices:increase the cooling area,increase Waterpressure to prevent boiling(limited to 3.75 in F1),increas Airflow thru radiators,increase heat transfer from Engine to cooling medium and back to the radiator itself.
Interestingly enough coolers are in plain aluminium so they throw away the possible additiopnal radiation heat from choosing black matt colour....
actually a brass cooler would ,could transfer heat better as the aluminium if they could avoid soldering the brass ,wich is inhibiting heat transfer and is the only reason why aluminium coolers to dissipate heat better.....
And if you were right that boiling point alone would be of interest so why not use oil instead of water at a boiling point of 130 °C ?Because water has better heat transsfer capabilities the H-bonds in the molecular structure give strong bonds wich let the water boil at a quite high temperature for the size of the molecules ,increasing the pressure strengthens the bonds giving it even more temp capability .That is why Water is so unique for heat transfer.excuse the crude explanation my english has seen better times definitivly

[Monstrobolaxa]

Don't worry I understood your explanation.....I'm going home for Easter...I'll go down to the place where I saw the oil and get it's specification in terms of heat transfer (I don't know the name in english....it's the amount of energy necessary to increase and decrease the fluid temperature by 1º). In any case Ferrari used the oil I was mentioning.....I'll try scanning the pic and put it in a server and put the link here.

[marcush.]

of course ,everyone has something new to learn everyday,and I would be happy to be proved wrong .

[Monstrobolaxa]

Well.....back from holidays....classes start tomorrow.

Well about this topic I finally was able to put it in a server....so here it is!

Well the white liquid is the water substitute I previously talked about, after posting the message I watched the 1994 San Marino GP (a sad weekend) but at the start-line crash between Pedro Lamy and J J Lehto there is an arial shot....and you see 3 puddles, a white liquid comeing from the broken left radiator, you see a yellowish liquid which is engine oil and a darker liquid which is gearbox oil or brake fluid.....if anyone has a picture of this pleasae post it.

About this oil used in the cooling system, I don't know if it is still used.....it was used in the 90's but nowadays something else might be used.



if the picture doesn't open here is the link:

http://www.geocities.com/correra_racing ... diator.jpg

[Monstrobolaxa]

Forgot to mention one thing.....this oil is mixable with water and its mixture is 20% this whote oil and 80% water.

I know water and oil don't mix....so lets start calling it a "liquid".....I only started calling it oil because I know Valvoline is one of the makers.

[marcush.]

hm...I talked about that liquid reducing surface tension I tried some years ago...it had white colour ,was not clear ,more a bit like water with a dip of milk in it.
The product is used in the paper/printing industry ,but I cannot remember what it was chemically....actually It was quite similar in function as redline water wetter....

[Monstrobolaxa]

Well just got some extra info about the liquid I'm talking about it's called: Valvoline Racing Super Coolant.

Well i mentioned that it was 20% liquid and 80% water....it is actually 10% liquid and 90% water (the confusion is due, because when I used it we used our eyes to mesure the quantities).

Well, so seems both of us were kind of wrong....I thought it was an oil...and you water....but it seems to be a mixture.....close to anti-freeze....but for high tempretures....some kind of "anti-vapour".

Probably other companies have products like this one....and I do not know if it is still used in F1.....(like I mentioned previously)

[Monstrobolaxa]

Forgot to mention 2 things....I sent an e-mail to Valvoline asking a question about the colour of this product.....and here is a link:

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products ... Product=96

[marcush.]

so here we are :water rules!
You have to add somethings to prvent the alloys to corrode immediatelly (looks terrible after very short time,so does the engine cooler...)and you need something to lube the waterpump seal.
And then you may fancy something to increase the water contact to the engine and to the heat exchanger in addition to increasing the pressure to the max allowed 3,75bars.

[Enzo]

Monstro, sorry but your first link (for the picture) is not working

[esn]

Hey guys i'm looking for informations about radiators but i can't find any..

He said that cooling the oil is more important than cooling the water. Why is that so and why isn't it like that in street cars and GT cars?

Is there also oil radiators on F3000 cars, formula renault etc?

Regards,

[olefud]

[Made of aluminium and replaced after every race, an F1 radiator actually consists of three separate radiators stacked horizontally, with a pipe leading from the cylinder head into the top radiator. The top and bottom radiators function as a loop, with a pipe exiting from the top radiator to feed the water to the bottom one, and a further pipe leaving the end of that to return the cooled water to the engine.

The middle radiator is separate, because its job is to cool not the water but the engine oil. Its central location affords the oil radiator better protection from any debris which might block it. ‘This is important, at the start of the race, you need to have the best possible water cooling, but in the race itself, oil cooling becomes more important. You want the oil radiator to go on working effectively even when the car picks up dirt and debris during the race’.
.

In view of the better heat transfer characteristics of water, might it not be more efficient to have only the air/water radiator(s) as the primary heat rejection setup and utilize air/oil intercoolers to deal with the substantial oil heat load? This seemingly would minimize the radiator drag and allow the intercooler to be positioned favorable regarding CoG etc. Also, it would keep the oil temperature better regulated particularly if conditions compromised the prestart oil heat.

Just a thought.

[riff_raff]

In view of the better heat transfer characteristics of water, might it not be more efficient to have only the air/water radiator(s) as the primary heat rejection setup and utilize air/oil intercoolers to deal with the substantial oil heat load? This seemingly would minimize the radiator drag and allow the intercooler to be positioned favorable regarding CoG etc. Also, it would keep the oil temperature better regulated particularly if conditions compromised the prestart oil heat.

While it's true that water has a greater specific heat value than lube oil, there are other factors to consider when it comes to heat exchangers. First, water has a much lower boiling point than lube oil. So the deltaT between the water flow and the ambient air at the heat exchanger core is much lower than within the oil cooling circuit. Second, the heat load rejected by the water coolant circuit is much greater than that within the lube oil circuit. Third, the lube oil circuit is more sensitive to the pressure and flow losses produced within the heat exchanger core.

All of these factors must be balanced when designing the water and lube oil heat exchangers.

[autogyro]

Interesting staged intake air cooling system on that new scramjet engine for orbital aircraft.
Just saying.