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I have nothing but respect for Lewis Hamiltons driving ablities. Never have I said, at least not that I can remember, he lacked skills. He is phenominal behind the wheel. He absolutely is capable of pulling off some fantastic passing. No doubt about that at all. I didn't mean to imply I felt it was easy from pole, sorry if I did. I just think it's easier from pole.Spencifer_Murphy wrote:Good point Ray, although I think (i would though wouldn't I? lol) that its being a little bit harsh on Lewis.
Granted his wins have come from pole, two of them though (Canada 2007, Australia 2008) he had to deal with his lead being erroded by safety cars on four, and then three, occasions. Winning from Pole isn't always an easy task of simply running and hiding. More importantly though, I think Lewis has proved time and time again that unlike Massa he CAN overtake, and he CAN battle it out on the track.
I think though he has lacked the restraint sometimes to know when to stop, hopefully with a year under his belt he'd have learnt that, maybe if he can marry that to his wheel-to-wheel ability he'll prove that he CAN win races from other than pole.
Basically I'm saying - you're right that both haven't won many (any?) races from other than pole, yes this can be seen as a fault or lacking on their part - but maybe Lewis is better than Massa.
Just my humble opinion on the matter.
I just wanted to comment that when I saw the thread - if one driver showed some very bad driving at Australia, then it's Raikkonen. Even ignoring his Saturday blockage on Kubica, which he wasn't punished for (while Glock got two!), his overtaking and driving were horrendous. Not quite the "machine" he was considered in testing...Ratatouille wrote:The same arguments you've been stating against Massa could be stated twice on Kimi Raikkonen. He also screwed up big time, and I don't see a thread yet stating how much Kimi sucks at overtaking, or let alone keeping his car off the grass while chasing Timo Glock.
Forgive my rudeness, but I call bullshit. Raikkonen did not turn in on Lewis because he had the upper hand. Unlike Coulthard. Also, Lewis came from WAY far back. Massa was alongside him the whole time in the braking zone. The two were very dissimilar. DC is completely at fault and should shut up about it.Metar wrote:My problem with Massa's move on Coulthard is simple - it looked as if there "was no corner" for Massa. While Coulthard turned in correctly (and not even that hard on the inside), Massa kept going straight, probably hoping to block Coulthard's way - similar to what Hamilton did with Raikkonen at the 2007 Monza race. But the idiot miscalculated the distances, and just ran straight into Coulthard, "Gran Turismo gaming" style.
Don't jump all over him because of one race & one "racing incident" with (IMHO) a second rate driver who has had worse racing incidents in his career. Yes, I criticize him because he wasn't cautious enough to bring his car out of the first turn at the start of the race. Not crucifiable though. Turn 1 at most tracks are notoriously too narrow. I hate this situation at most tracks. Yes, he has won from pole many times. Look at Hamilton yesterday. Without having to pass anyone & no pressure from cars behind him, he made it look easy. But, in fact it was much harder that it looked. That's why P1 is so important in qualifying. 
I'm soory, I don't understand how Massa hoped to take a wider path. When DC turned in on him he was over the effing curb! How is that wide?!?Metar wrote:Yes, but Massa's idea was to take a wider path through the corner, turning in later (which is the slower way, over a single lap), hoping to cut into Coulthard's way and force him to stop behind him. Unfortunately, he misjudged it, and ended up going too fast, while Coulthard already braked and began turning - and not even on the inside line. Massa had space there.
So how exactly is DC being oblivious to the move Massa threw on him not DCs fault? Massa did not have too much speed. He was well within a safe margin to pass DC, but DC left him absolutely no choice but to hit him. You're wrong. The thing about Kimi and Lewis is that KIMI GAVE LEWIS ROOM ENOUGH TO AVOID A COLLISION. DC did not do that. They threw the same manuever but Lewis came from much further back. DC has no room to talk after what he did to Wurz.Metar wrote:One of the overtaking tactics is to get ahead of your opponent, possibly slightly away from the ideal racing-line, and "block him". See case: Hamilton Vs. Raikkonen, Monza 2007. Unfortunately, Massa went in with a little too much speed for this maneuver, while Coulthard went right ahead, apparently oblivious to it.
Yes agreed, Massa is a good workhorse No 2 driver but then he should admit that...not pretend he's going for the championship like he did last year. If I were a Brazilian F1 fan, I would be disgusted that Brazil has produced yet another "yes guy" after many good years of Senna. When is a Brazilian driver going to step up and say "I am the No 1 driver, take it or leave it!!"I'm not sure I understand all those criticizing Massa. Don't jump all over him because of one race & one "racing incident" with (IMHO) a second rate driver who has had worse racing incidents in his career. Yes, I criticize him because he wasn't cautious enough to bring his car out of the first turn at the start of the race. Not crucifiable though. Turn 1 at most tracks are notoriously too narrow. I hate this situation at most tracks. Yes, he has won from pole many times. Look at Hamilton yesterday. Without having to pass anyone & no pressure from cars behind him, he made it look easy. But, in fact it was much harder that it looked. That's why P1 is so important in qualifying.
Massa raced a few years along side MS in equal car & yet was not severly outclassed.
Keep in mind Massa's salary at Ferrari is nowhere near the others. I would wait at least 'til end of this season to pass harsh judgement on him. In the meantime, world champions Kimi & Alonso's driving yesterday was (IMHO) third rate & much more disappointing.