2010 - 4WD legalized for budget capped teams. Effects?

[safeaschuck]

Despite this picture I am wondering now whether or not the Kers units are, strictly speaking water-cooled as of today. I might theorise that Ferrari's is, and is very similar to the one displayed here, hence it's additional weight whereas Mclarens may not be. Half a second is not a very long time in which to get hot, however ambient temperatures are going to be high, the block Is water-cooled and the MGU will be bolted directly to the block, I would imagine that without the effect of water cooling on the block the MGU would get rather warm! It would be relatively simple, if the engines were open to design changes, to tap the cooling system and run water into the MGU housing without needing to revert to hoses, when the charging requirements increase.

As for whether a front axle kers/diff system would need active fluid cooling with the lower ambient temperatures would, I suppose depend on the amount of charge it was expected/allowed to collect and it is probably a bit early to speculate, especially for someone with my limited knowledge. At least, as mentioned, from the B.A.R. days Brawn will have data on things like heat from the brakes soaking up the drive shafts and the other problems I cannot foresee. I shan't waste further time re-opening the debate as to whether this sort of background makes them strictly a new team Anyway despite not being the most serious of observations the water pipes under the driver comment really was not very well thought out. My deepest apologies.

[DaveKillens]

I have seriouc reservations in attempting to run FWD via transferring torque from the engine. The weight and packaging issues in running a driveshaft alongside the drive would force a compromise in crash impact integrity. Also, I don't think any driver would be pleased to have a driveshaft in such close proximity. If there was ever a crash and this driveshaft became detached, it would wreak carnage on the driver's cell, driver included.
But to instead mount an electric motor for drive on the front is more realistic. Since KERS would be present, and since the a generator/motor would be mounted to the engine driveshaft, why not use it as a drive when KERS is not active? Who says you can't use KERS components for non-KERS applications? The generator/motor would be a motor when KERS is applied, and used as a generator for the front drive at other times.
That way, the front end would receive continous power as part of the drivetrain, and when KERS is allowed/required, supplimented by the extra boost of KERS.

[xpensive]

Seems you have a point here SC, mea culpa, that thing certainly looks liquid-cooled, although probably integrated with the engine-cooling circuit.

If that is the case, obviously a front-MGU would need something similar?

[safeaschuck]

That's alright my friend (x), without scrutiny I really would start to talk some BS.

I really don't know how much heat or how they would get it out. From memory I believe the weak point of most electric motors is the epoxy coatings on the winding wires, that seems to be what 'burns out'??? but I imagine the teams have a more innovative coating material to raise the frying point.

For all I know the wheels themselves could be made into MGU's. Perhaps some bright spark will cast the front wheels using some sort of magnetic composite, then they could build electrical windings into the front wheel aero covers or brake disc shrouds, both items could be made to run closely enough with the wheels at sufficient speed with a large enough surface area to generate a magnetic field and if designed to accommodate some torque transfer may be able to be used to collect and distribute power. ("pshhh" I hear everyone say, unsprung weight [-X , I know! It's not like it's going to happen!!! ). Perhaps they could even insulate the upper and lower wishbones from each other and transmit the power through the carbon composite back to an inboard battery??? I believe this reinforces the first line of this post.

[gcdugas]

How can the FIA get away with this time and again? What authority do they have to unilaterally write technical regs? Is the TWG just a quaint body to be ignored when ever Max gets in a sour mood?

Max and the FIA have a vote on the TWG and can implement some changes if there is a legitimate safety concern but that is it. BTW, there is no way that cold tires are NOT a safety concern so the hypocrisy of the FIA is blatant yet again.

The FOTA needs to run their candidate for FIA president and be rid of Max. Short of that, they need to openly challenge his authority under the agreements the same way they defeated the "wins system of WDC determination"... by citing that the FIA was in violation of written agreements. There is no way Max has the authority to do any of this, so why are the teams not challenging his goofy two tiered, no refueling, no tire warmers, increased weight, different revs ideas?

As I recall, the FOTA has published their budget cut ideas and it was ignored. The FOTA has published their revised points system ideas and it was ignored. So the FOTA now needs to get political and defeat Max in the election or revive the GPMA schism and carry through with it.

[safeaschuck]

Perhaps they will continue to introduce one formerly unthinkable new regulation each year to keep the field mixed up and the excitement level high, it seems to be working so far. I can't see the problem gcdugas? I believe the governing body can get away with whatever they like; aren't the teams still refusing to sign a fresh concorde agreement and working on a 'pay as you go' basis? hence Briatore's ability to dispute Brawns royalty revenue payment??? Or is the Concorde a money only legislation, not dealing with tech. regs at all?

Anyway, front wheels as engines I quite like the idea, anyone know the practicalities?

[DaveKillens]

Anyway, front wheels as engines I quite like the idea, anyone know the practicalities?

Advantages - elimination of the mechanical drivetrain and it's positive effect in packaging and safety. The motors can also be used to replace the brakes, since motors can also be utilized for that application. Ability to be integrated as part of the KERS package.

Disadvantages - unsprung weight. This sytem could easily be designed for (currently illegal) traction control.

Max Mosley is a freaking genius. Despite his long list of personal shortcomings, the man sure knows how to get people to follow his personal agenda. Seriously, the man stands alone against some of the most intelligent, sophisticated, motivated people in the world (the teams) and yet manages to bully his way through them almost every time. I'd be the first to jump in line to slag Max, but I also have to admit he's one smart dude.
In the last couple of years, Max has been preaching about two main goals. To lower costs in Formula One, and to prove to the world that Formula One is become more of a responsible citizen. That is through adoption of greener fuels, and improved fuel mileage. The teams have their agendas, and that is to win, to be successful. To achieve those goals, they are willing to spend whatever it takes, and to use whatever fuels and strategies to improve performance. I remember when Formula One fuel was a toxic concoction of exotic chemicals. So the teams won't willingly go down the road Max wants them to. So instead he creates conditions where they have no choice but to go his way. But he doesn't just try to push one rule to change everything all at once. Instead he is creating a number of rules, over a period of time, that taken together, force the teams towards his agenda.
KERS is here to stay, get used to that. And in the near future, KERS will become so mature that it will be utilized each corner, each braking opportunity, each lap of each race. Fuel savings will be one logical result. There will be a ban on refuelling. Once that rule comes into effect, then Max will just change the rules and reduce the maximum fuel cell size, and thus force the teams to conserve fuel. Then eventually, expect the rules to require bio-fuels.
Now the topic of reducing costs. Since it's almost impossible to force the teams to voluntarily reduce costs, Max introduces a budget cap for those willing to volunteer for this program. And of course, those who do accept a budget cap will be handed opportunities to increase performance, to the extent that they will be competitive, and most likely, be able to beat the teams willing to spend outside the budget cap. Those teams will find themselves forced into the budget cap, because they will never again be able to enjoy success.
For instance, if Ferrari refuse to allow a budget cap, in the near future, they will find themselves being beaten by budgeted teams each and every race. Then what's Ferrari going to do? Accept the budget cap, or leave Formula One.
Max is interested primarily in the future of Formula One. As far as the future of the teams, that is secondary. And history has proven that teams come and go in Formula One. If one leaves, they will be missed for just a short while, and eventually the fans forget. Even Ferrari. Back in the 50's and 60's endurance racing, especially LeMans, was the big motor sport. And Ferrari was a big dog in that discipline. But Ferrari left that kind of racing, and today, I don't see or hear any fans complaining about this. Time is Max's friend.
So although we see what appears to be a mess of confusing and weird rules, they are designed to drive Formula One into the vision of what Max wants. And expect more to come, this isn't the end, but sadly, only the opening phases of a long campaign. Max wants a world engine by 2013, that's just an indication of how far into the future he has this planned.

[PlatinumZealot]

Front wheel drive motors would help in some corners.

Aerodynamic penalty to fit all of it in the front though.

Power can be sent from left to right depending on the controls.

But would it be under KERS usage? Because you are still using the batteries to add power to the car.

A dive shaft might only work if the cars' noses were lower.. And ooh the safety issues that were highlighted before.

[Giblet]

Front driven wheels, driving the outside wheel with more power, does help a car turn in better, as the Preulde SH proved, making it the best handling car for less then 30,000 in 1997.

Would 4 wheel steering be allowed under the new rules?

[WhiteBlue]

I think that aerodynamic turn in assist would be possible by adjusting the right and left side of the front wing different.

All KERS equippment will be fluid cooled. Air cooling brings such a hefty penalty in terms of heat extraction that they cannot overload the systems as much as they can with fluid cooling. Fluid cooled systems therefore are much more compact and have higher power/weight ratio.

When they put front wheel KERS on I expect them to have alocal radiator for the front MGU. The power control and storage would most likely be central for front and rear. Storage has to be located between driver and engine for safety reasons anyway.

I agree with most of what Dave Killens has said above. I would have some reservations about the world engine though. Manufacturers will compete on fuel efficiency. That will partly be done by pushing hybrid systems, but once the low hanging fruits are all taken they will have to go back to thermodynamics and integrate HERS. That will not work without fundamental design consequences to the ICE. This is once again in the competence envelope of the automotive manufacturers. They will use this as competitive advantage. It is much easier to cooperate on purchased sub systems such as electric MGUs, Lithium battries and power regulators. You pool purchasing power and both sides win from standardization. With the thermodynamic developments of the coming years I doubt that you can buy the stuff.

[xpensive]

Need for cooling comes from poor efficiency, let's hope that the KERS components are developed in the right direction.

Besides, at the end of the day, everything on an F1 car is air-cooled, one way or the other.

[WhiteBlue]

Need for cooling comes from poor efficiency, let's hope that the KERS components are developed in the right direction.

Besides, at the end of the day, everything on an F1 car is air-cooled, one way or the other.

Racing is all about performance. Fluid cooling performs 1000 times more efficient in terms of heat transfer than air cooling and allows for significant weight savings. Anything that drives weight out of a car will be extremely desirable in the future.

My hope is for technologies like the Williams composite storage to succeed. If they can trasnfer that technology to MGUs you could take a lot of weight for magnets, copper coils and steel lamells out of the unit.

[xpensive]

Sometimes WB, I wonder if you have a natural gift for annoying people, or if you have to make an effort?

I'm very sorry for saying this, but at times your almost arrogant and evidence-free preaching-style does that.

[Giblet]

[Scania]

how about Hydraulic transmission or electric transmission the engine power to front wheel?