Williams blocking increased brake disc sizes for 2010

[ISLAMATRON]

Why not? unsprung mass does not have to change that much... remember the weight of the "brakes" wouldnt be there anymore.

A carbon disc weighs very little.
An alternator/motor weights compartively alot, and the gyroscopic effects are also increased.
You happy with the thought of losing all braking capacity if the KERS system throws a wobbly?

You mean how Webbo's KERS let go today and put him in the wall? Who cares what the MGU weighs(about 5kg according to Merc)? Why waste the energy to heat into the air when you can recapture it and reuse it, I know waste is the basis for western society but doesnt anybody realise that things need and must change?

So 2 outboard brake assemblies(plus their aero cooling requirements) or 1 inboard MGU, I know what I would pick.

And what is so wrong with inboard brakes? they have inboard shocks & springs... is that wrong too?

Archaic. The drive shaft would also require packaging, it would be a significant disrupter to the airflow. Could be done of course, not sure on the cooling requirements. [/quote]

Like I said IT IS OPTIONAL, the teams dont have to use it, but when they get spanked by more effiecient KERS cars they will incorperate it.

How are they trying to drive up costs?

I think that is pretty obvious. Even for you in a pigheaded moment! [/quote]

If it is so obvious then lay it out. Ifany team is interested in containing costs it is obviously Williams, and obviouly not the factory teams that run FOTA.

Increasing the brake diameter means that the wheels have to change, as do the tires... that would be big money... if it is just thickness, then it might not be as much but it will still cost more.

Just disc thickness.

The front wheels are changing anyway as the tyres are becoming narrower on the front.[/quote]
The front wheels are getting smaller(as opposed to the rears larger) because BS has some old molds they will be using, changing the sidewalls would eliminate those costs savings.

[ISLAMATRON]

I understand that a 700 kg F1 car can go from 285 to 120 km/h in less than 3 seconds, that is an average of 600 kW.

A 150 kW MGU at each corner? O mama...

Very good point.


The current KERS is a joke in terms of the size needed to dissipate all the energy of an F1 car under braking.

And? We all know that, that does not mean eliminate it... the current KERS is a joke because FERRARI vetoed it until it was.

Braking distances need to increase anyway to help overtaking.

[vasia]

Also who cares about this obsession to cut costs? Fact is, no matter how restrictive the rules become, teams are ALWAYS going to find ways to spend lots of money. That is the nature of F1. F1 is the world's top motorsport, it always was, is, and should be a spectacle.

As for the brake discs, FOTA is just being realistic. Think about it, with the increased weight of the cars for next year, how do you think the brakes will cope on a track like Singapore? They will likely disintegrate if kept at their current size.

And no, braking distances do NOT need to increase, that is silly. Increased brake distances would reduce safety. Also keeping brake discs the same size for next year would also impact safety.

I always find it incredible that some people in this day and age feel fine with reducing safety in F1 as long as it is for "cutting costs" or increasing overtaking.

The notion that cost cutting should occur to allow small teams with little money to join F1 is ridiculous. F1 is prestigious; you have to pay to play. Just look at football, and owning a football club. Not just any millionaire can have his own football club. It takes a huge amount of money to have your own football club. You have to pay to play in that case, and the same should remain in F1.

All these small, insignificant teams with little money should go race elsewhere in other racing series.

[ISLAMATRON]

Yes the small insignificant teams like Honda & BMW, should go elsewhere. We're just fine with our 16 car grids. We could even get 3 cars from Ferrari who never started off as a small team.

[vasia]

You mean Ferrari, who started off as a small team when F1 was just starting ?

Be realistic. F1 is not some new sport, it is a very prestigious, very established sport. Why should the requirements of entering F1 right now be so low? If BMW and Honda decided to leave, that is their problem.

There are rumors that Hyundai wants to join F1, so if that is true, why not let them join, instead of some of the small teams?

Using your logic, they should implement cost cutting in football too right? Then any random millionaire can have his own football club right ?

[xpensive]

If all four of the new peanut-teams really makes it to the grid next year, I fear for the traffic, at least at some circuits.

[ISLAMATRON]

I could not care less about who owns what football team, if you cant see the need for cost cutting then I cant say anything to convince you.

[Jersey Tom]

Yes the small insignificant teams like Honda & BMW, should go elsewhere. We're just fine with our 16 car grids. We could even get 3 cars from Ferrari who never started off as a small team.

Honda small and insignificant? Are you at all familiar with the Honda engines of the late 80s and early 90s? Have you ever heard of Brawn GP?

[kilcoo316]

You mean how Webbo's KERS let go today and put him in the wall?

Which is why I am questioning Williams for limiting the brake disc size.

Can you keep up?


Hamilton's KERS had to be reset today over the space of a few laps - what do you do then? Retire the car until it has some brakes?


Or what about the two ferraris back in Sepang... you either have no brakes, or electrocute yourself. Helluva choice eh?

Who cares what the MGU weighs(about 5kg according to Merc)?

You obviously did not pay much attention to xpensive's post did you?

150kW alternators at each wheel?

5 kg?

What kind of unobtainium are they built with?

Why waste the energy to heat into the air when you can recapture it and reuse it

Whenever the alternative is worse.

So 2 outboard brake assemblies(plus their aero cooling requirements) or 1 inboard MGU, I know what I would pick.

So thats a 300kW MGU now?

Still only 5 kg of course....

Like I said IT IS OPTIONAL, the teams dont have to use it, but when they get spanked by more effiecient KERS cars they will incorperate it.

It is not much of an 'option' with 28mm discs.


Am I going too quickly for you here?

If it is so obvious then lay it out.

How much does it cost to add 4 mm to a brake disc and incorporate that into a new design brake system?

How much does it cost for teams to:

1. Design a MGUs capable of handling throughputs of 150-300kW?
2. Package this in the front of the car - inside the monocoque or at the wheel hubs?
3. Include the wiring looms (safely) to the batteries (that must have a capacity of greater than 2000 kJ). Ensure that these looms cannot short the car. (at 12v, that is 50000 amps?
4. Ensure the KERS is 'critical system' safe?


Away and crawl back over to your sandpit kiddo.

The front wheels are getting smaller(as opposed to the rears larger) because BS has some old molds they will be using, changing the sidewalls would eliminate those costs savings.

The sidewalls will not change because it is disc thickness. They would change if it is disc diameter.

You do understand the fundamental differences between thickness and diameter, don't you?

[ISLAMATRON]

Yes the small insignificant teams like Honda & BMW, should go elsewhere. We're just fine with our 16 car grids. We could even get 3 cars from Ferrari who never started off as a small team.

Honda small and insignificant? Are you at all familiar with the Honda engines of the late 80s and early 90s? Have you ever heard of Brawn GP?

Sarcasm

[vasia]

I could not care less about who owns what football team, if you cant see the need for cost cutting then I cant say anything to convince you.

I could not care less that you're missing the point of what F1 is all about either. Nothing I say will convince you.

The day that F1 loses it's prestige and spectacle status as a pinnacle of motorsports and sports in general, is the day that F1 is no longer F1 but just another generic race series.

[ISLAMATRON]

You mean how Webbo's KERS let go today and put him in the wall?

Which is why I am questioning Williams for limiting the brake disc size.

Everyone else(other than the 4 RBR cars) seem to have done just fine, you act as if 1 car finished the race.

The teams should not be looking to eliminate brakes at the moment but they should be working towards it, there is no need to increase the brakes, change the compound if you need to, or increase the cooling, but F1 should be working to move away from brakes and improving regeneration technologies.

Why waste the energy to heat into the air when you can recapture it and reuse it

Whenever the alternative is worse.

I'm not advocating the total elimination of brakes at this point, but F1 should be moving towards it in small steps. No need to increase the brakes, thickness or diameter, just increase the KERS capacity.

Like I said IT IS OPTIONAL, the teams dont have to use it, but when they get spanked by more effiecient KERS cars they will incorperate it.

It is not much of an 'option' with 28mm discs.

The cars were fine with those 28mm discs when they had 1000+plus hp, the teams could run 50mm thick discs and still burn them up if they dont cool them or run too extreme a compound... increasing the discs is not the answer. McLaren did not seem to have brake problems today, RBR did, same brake thicknesses... even with 32mm thick discs, some teams will run to the extreme and go overboard. Each team is responsible for setting up the car to finish the race.

The front wheels are getting smaller(as opposed to the rears larger) because BS has some old molds they will be using, changing the sidewalls would eliminate those costs savings.

The sidewalls will not change because it is disc thickness. They would change if it is disc diameter.

You do understand the fundamental differences between thickness and diameter, don't you?

I have yet to see anything official regarding if it would be a thickness or a diameter change, I am arguing against both.

[ISLAMATRON]

I could not care less about who owns what football team, if you cant see the need for cost cutting then I cant say anything to convince you.

I could not care less that you're missing the point of what F1 is all about either. Nothing I say will convince you.

The day that F1 loses it's prestige and spectacle status as a pinnacle of motorsports and sports in general, is the day that F1 is no longer F1 but just another generic race series.

The point of F1 is high technology, there is nothing technologically impressive amount increasing the brake size, they have been running these type of brakes for over 10 years now, they are obsolete, we do not need thicker obsoleteness, Energy regen & higher efficiency is the future, we need more of that.

Keeping the same old technologies will make F1 look more and more like NASCAR.

[PlatinumZealot]

I like KERS.. but i would never use it to replace the mechanical brakes.. too risky..

i would just keep it as it is an just increase the output.. it only takes 0.5 seconds to charge.. so it can't take away that much K.E from the car without a heap load of batteries or flywheels.. The batteries would just melt from the huge amount of power.

[noname]

the rules mandate unanimous vote to change rules within 1 year... If any team says no then it aint gonna happen.

if FOTA/FIA/whoever does not want to be surprised, or angry, because of the veto of one team remove this rule.

Williams just used his right to say no.