Beating Button

[hecti]

i'd love to see barrichello win the championship =D>

[Belatti]

On the other hand, if you think any driver is not as good as the rest, then this site requires from you to prove that you're a better poster than the people that writes at other forums: get some telemetry, post a few images and give us a lesson about your knowledge of good driving. That's why a technical site is wonderful: you don't fight other people, you ask for proof that anyone can understand.

But we rely on a magazine´s source...



Is that good enough?

[Terrible3]

Time to step in this thread (and I hope, for the last time).....

I wont argue that generally speaking perhaps the best 20-30 drivers are in F1, but that doesn't mean they are all created equal. I also don't feel that I have to be a F1 driver myself in order to have a valid opinion of the matter. Yes my racing experience does allow me to better judge a drivers talents, but its not everything.

With that being said I don't think anyone will argue the fact that Luca Badoer, Sébastien Bourdais and Nelson Piquet, Jr. are not epic drivers. Its not rocket science, no spread sheets, graphs or telemetry needed. Anyways getting back to Button, I am on the fence with him. On one hand his driving style is spot on and he never ( this year at least) makes mistakes. I think he will have a second coming in endurance racing later on in his career. None the less I cant help but feel that his ultimate speed or perhaps his ability to make a car not suited to him fast is lacking. For the second half of the season he has not been able to show the dominance he hat at the start. Rubens has out classed him in my eyes recently. The only time he seemed to perform was when there was optimal conditions for his car and when he was in a far superior car.

On the opposite side of the spectrum there is Vettel who clearly has the talent to drive faster than average, destroy others in the wet yet makes a lot of mistakes. Its a real shame that he has made so many critical errors this season and in return cost him the WDC. Also the engine situation is just down to bad luck and has completely doomed his WDC hopes.

Rubens, well well well..... I was not a fan of his hit at the Australian GP but other than that he has be driving decently. Recently he has showed a lot more pace than button and so I would love to see him steal the title away from him. This would be at least somewhat interesting.

[andartop]

I 'm in all honesty one of the last people on earth who would cheer for Jenson Button winning a WDC.

That said, I came to respect the man quite a few years ago, after reading about this incident: it was the first year (I think) Button was racing for Honda at Spa, and after the race a journalist asked him why he kept missing an apex (alas, my memory did not retain a lot of facts, I know, if a fellow forum member has the details please enlighten us!) again and again. Button replied that the 100m sign was mistakenly placed a bit closer than it should have been. He said that he knew his car very well, and was certain he could decelerate by x Km/h in a y given distance, but every time he did that on that particular corner he found himself having missed the apex already, thus concluded that the only variable he was not so certain about was the distance (not his reaction time, not his tires, not his brakes, not the race track condition!)! After several laps he started braking a bit earlier than he knew he had to (in regards to the 100m sign), and made the corner smoothly.

Funny thing is, the marshals did confirm later on that the aforementioned sign was indeed mistakenly placed a couple of meters closer than it should have!

I'm still to register myself at JB's fanclub, buy a Honda (Brawn) mug or be overfilled with joy when he wins a race, and I would have liked Vettel, Webber or even poor old Rubens to get the title before Jenson Button. But so far this year, none of the aforementioned, nor anybody else for that matter, is more worthy of the WDC than JB, and this, I think, needs no proof other than a quick look at the results.

[axle]

But we rely on a magazine´s source...

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/839/tele ... arrisu.jpg

Is that good enough?

According to Ross Brawn if you erase the name Schumacher and replace it with Button it would be accurate.

Button is progressive on the brakes and in actual fact presses harder on them when at peak force. He then comes off them more progressively and thus carries more speed into a corner.
Rubens smacks the pedal down with full force straight away (which is better for heating the brakes and tyres for a quali lap) and scrubs off more speed on entry, but gains a bit on exit.

[Miguel]

Isn't Rubens the only driver still braking with his right foot? That piece of telemetry really supports that idea. There is also some telemetry comparing Piquet and Alonso around... ehem... Singapore.

Finally, I wouldn't be so sure about Bourdais. He's been top dog everywhere he's been with the exception of F1. Calling mediocre someone that has won 4 ChampCar titles and that is very likely to win Le Mans... well, I'd like to drive as "bad" as Sebastien.

[Shaddock]

Button will be the kind of champion Mika Hakkinen or Damon Hill were. Or if you go to the past, like Denny Hulme or Keke Rosberg. Consistant? Yes. With good cars? Yes. Lucky? Yes. Fast? YES! Fantastic? No way!

"Fantastic" is another league, the league were you have to do something that goes beyond the simple fact that winning a WDC is. Maybe Alonso, Hamilton or even Vettel are closer to that than Jenson.

I hope he gets the WDC because I rate Rubens below Jenson, and my opinion is he was born to be 2nd.

Mika Hakkinen A bit harsh IMO, definitely Villeneuve. Mika could keep Shumi honest, and was probably the only driver that MS respected in a car. You could also add Andretti to the historic list.

[Richard]

if you have such good taste for drivers (or painters, or football players), then prove your taste by explaining to us who the good ones are and telling us what distinguishes them and (over all!) how many good drivers you've identified and supported since they were young.

On the other hand, if you think any driver is not as good as the rest, then this site requires from you to prove that you're a better poster than the people that writes at other forums: get some telemetry, post a few images and give us a lesson about your knowledge of good driving. That's why a technical site is wonderful: you don't fight other people, you ask for proof that anyone can understand.

x 2

Not wanting to blow my own trumpet too much but .... I think you mean this sort of post ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7403&p=126620#p126620

[PNSD]

Based on what? Opinion?

I was being sarcastic. Mediocre is a word in one of the posts above I initially reacted to. I can't see what's the fuss about Button 'cracking under pressure'. So far it's his opponents who tend to mess up, pressure or not. Button+Brawn has been top class in making the most of the chances. I'll be happy to see him crowned at the end of the year.

Then my dearest appologies.

I went off on one, so sorry!

On reflection my post wasnt exactly useful or meaningful!

Concep - I agree, that is all. Opinion is opinion. Its the biggest variable in F1! But as I said, I went off on one.

[PNSD]

r even Vettel are closer to that than Jenson.

This is what I dont understand?

What has Vettel done to earn this thought whilst Button is not in the same league? Just exactly what does Button lack compared to Vettel?

[tarzoon]

This is what I dont understand?

What has Vettel done to earn this thought whilst Button is not in the same league? Just exactly what does Button lack compared to Vettel?

Age. He's 29 and he never won a WDC so far. But short memory tends to neglect Hakkinnen and Shummi, and even uncompetitive cars.

And to his defence, he didn't crack under pressure because he never had any real pressure. Except from tabloids.

[axle]

r even Vettel are closer to that than Jenson.

This is what I dont understand?

What has Vettel done to earn this thought whilst Button is not in the same league? Just exactly what does Button lack compared to Vettel?

Pass. Probably age related. Vettel has speed and has driven very well when chasing down or leading clearly... but he hasn't when being chased - like at Turkey for instance.

Vettel is not the finished article. Like Lewis wasn't (possibly still isn't). Champions know how to maximise their situation. Great drivers are those that can do something special with a car. The two are subtly different and rarely together. Button sits on the champions side IMO - he maximises his opportunities etc and plays the long game.
Vettel and Hamilton are better drivers IMO but that can't always make them champions...being quick simply isn't enough, as Lewis found out in 2007 and nearly in 2008.

[Giblet]

Isn't Rubens the only driver still braking with his right foot? That piece of telemetry really supports that idea. There is also some telemetry comparing Piquet and Alonso around... ehem... Singapore.

Finally, I wouldn't be so sure about Bourdais. He's been top dog everywhere he's been with the exception of F1. Calling mediocre someone that has won 4 ChampCar titles and that is very likely to win Le Mans... well, I'd like to drive as "bad" as Sebastien.

Rubens made the switch from right to left foot braking when TC was taken away.

[Miguel]

Rubens made the switch from right to left foot braking when TC was taken away.

Thanks for the info, Giblet.

[Belatti]

r even Vettel are closer to that than Jenson.

This is what I dont understand?

What has Vettel done to earn this thought whilst Button is not in the same league? Just exactly what does Button lack compared to Vettel?

I was talking about Vettel being closer than Jenson to the "fantastic" league. Wasn´t fantastic to win at Monza the way he did with a Toro Roso???