McLaren engine in the future?

[Just_a_fan]

Of course, they could just go back to Ilmor and ask them to help out...

[audifan]

I suspect that McL won't build their own engine plant any more than mercedes did
with such a strong partnership with ricardo , wwhat sense would there be in that ? how long would it take them to build up the same level of expertise ?

[gibells]

Of course, they could just go back to Ilmor and ask them to help out...

You mean Mario Illien, because Ilmor (of old) was changed to MBHE? I'm sure he would be keen. His MotoGP effort didn't get off the ground and I'm not sure what he's doing right now.

[Raptor22]

why would McLaren want to build an engine plant for an F1 engine? It's amassive investment for little finacial gain.
They will most likely design their own 1.6L Turbo in conjunction with Riccardo but a special plant is really a nice to have when the cash would be better spent elsewhere

[raymondu999]

Actually, wouldn't it be a big risk if they go with someone without F1 engine building experience? I mean, I'd think that the efficiencies in terms of energy ouptut/input would be very high and having experience building roadcar engines, even supercar ones, would be nowhere near, no? Wouldn't it then be a big performance detriment

[Martin Keene]

Of course, they could just go back to Ilmor and ask them to help out...

You mean Mario Illien, because Ilmor (of old) was changed to MBHE? I'm sure he would be keen. His MotoGP effort didn't get off the ground and I'm not sure what he's doing right now.

Ilmor still exist, as do MBHE.

http://www.ilmor.co.uk/

http://www.mercedes-benz-hpe.com/

I believe the story goes something like this. Mario Illien did the deal to sell the balance of the company to Mercedes and in doing so negotiated the rights to the Ilmor name and set up again doing what he always did.

Edit: Err, a quick Google suggest he got more than the name. Ilmor is in the same building it has always been, and MBHE is in a new sparkly facility on the opposite side of the A508...

[Pup]

It is a common myth with McLaren fans that Mercedes and McLaren have an unconditional supply deal until 2015. This is not true. Under certain conditions McLaren could be a Mercedes customer until that time.

source
The partnership between McLaren Mercedes has been in place since 1995 and ended its 15th joint Formula 1 season in 2009. The change to the form of cooperation is taking place by mutual agreement. Mercedes-Benz and McLaren will continue to co-operate with each other and the supply of engines could continue until 2015.

You're quoting from a news article, not a press release. The actual press release, source of much myth and mystery...

Mercedes-Benz: to power McLaren’s Formula 1 cars until 2015

Having begun in 1995, the McLaren/Mercedes-Benz partnership is already one of the longest engine-supply associations in Formula 1 history; 2009 was its 15th consecutive year and 2015 will be its 21st consecutive year, by which time it will have become by some margin the longest such association in Formula 1 history. Both the McLaren Group and Daimler AG were therefore committed to securing its continuation as part of a realigned long-term strategic alliance, and to have provided mechanisms whereby the partnership may continue beyond 2015. The team will continue to be known as Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, its distinctive silver-with-red livery will remain unchanged, and Mercedes-Benz will continue as both an engine supplier and a partner.

[gridwalker]

Of course, they could just go back to Ilmor and ask them to help out...

You mean Mario Illien, because Ilmor (of old) was changed to MBHE? I'm sure he would be keen. His MotoGP effort didn't get off the ground and I'm not sure what he's doing right now.

Ilmor still exist, as do MBHE.

http://www.ilmor.co.uk/

http://www.mercedes-benz-hpe.com/

I believe the story goes something like this. Mario Illien did the deal to sell the balance of the company to Mercedes and in doing so negotiated the rights to the Ilmor name and set up again doing what he always did.

Edit: Err, a quick Google suggest he got more than the name. Ilmor is in the same building it has always been, and MBHE is in a new sparkly facility on the opposite side of the A508...

I guess that the MBHPE "takeover" would have just been the purchase of all IP relating to the Ilmor engines that were being raced under the Mercedes banner ... would anyone have any more information about this?

[ESPImperium]

It cost BMW a reputed €35m euro to close down its F1 engine operation and transfer the tallent there to other areas, with 150 of the 300 there going to work on its DTM engine and its GT2 and GT3 engine operation. The others went to its next supercar operation or going to other engine supliers in F1. Most of the guys that got either laid off or wanted to stay in F1 went to either Renault of Cosworth. Toyota didnt close its engine operation, it just re structured it, reducing it to arround 175 for its entry into LMP rumored to be in 2013. The rest went to either Ferrari or Cosworth as the Toyota plant was largly a Anglo-Itilian workforce where as BMW has a mix of French/German and UK workforce.

Id recon if it cost €35m to close down or restructure, it would be in the region of €50m to build up a engine plant for F1 with a start up and anual running cost of €8m to €12m, whitch McLaren could supply another team with their powerplant to subsidise the running cost. Force India is €10m to Mercedes, Red Bull and Team Lotus are €8m to Renault, Ferrari ask €7.5m from Toro Rosso and Sauber with €2.5m for its KERS as well. So id recon that if they supplied a powertrain of Engine/KERS/HERS with the McLaren transmission as well, id recon that a figure of €8m would be a decent figure for a season, and that would help with the running costs of things in the new engine formula.

Without intimate insider knowlege of the comercial deals, there is no way of getting a direct figure on things.

But i think that McLaren will ditch Mercedes soon for their own powertrain before 2013.

With the new Resource Restriction Aggreement there is a framework for a engine suppliers that have a works team to only supply one more team, so Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault would all have to ditch one team, leaving 3 teams (at current) to find an engine deal with someone like Cosworth. However there is also a idea being floated that all gearboxes shall have the same layshaft and mounting points as standard, and with Engines to have the same mountings as well so privateer teams can change from a renault to a Ferarri power plant in a couple of hours to test out engines and gearboxes in a modular form, also meaning that when a engine expires, it can be changed in about an hour or so. However this means the auxilaries would be diffrent, bringing in package compromises if a team wanted to thest out a Cosworth in the morning and a McLaren in the afternoon in a test session.

But thats me going miles off topic.

Probabilities of a McLaren F1 engine are good, but i think the next engine after the 1.6L Turbos in 2013 will see a McLaren F1 engine. Id recon that the next engine rotation will be in 2020 going on how long the V8s have lasted (7 years) as Mclaren will want to have enough dough slopping about to sink into a F1 engine as they need to make the Automotive side of things work at the present moment in time.

[Just_a_fan]

Of course, they could just go back to Ilmor and ask them to help out...

You mean Mario Illien, because Ilmor (of old) was changed to MBHE? I'm sure he would be keen. His MotoGP effort didn't get off the ground and I'm not sure what he's doing right now.

Ilmor are alive and well. See http://www.ilmor.co.uk/.

In the early nineties Ilmor made the natural progression to Formula One, supplying Leyton House, March and Tyrrell. In 1993 Mercedes-Benz announced their collaboration with Ilmor, providing the financial backing for the V10 engine supply to Sauber.

Two years later the Mercedes return to F1 was complete, with the Ilmor V10 badged as a Mercedes-Benz and the start of the long-standing relationship with McLaren. In 1997 David Coulthard took the first Ilmor Formula 1 race win, then in 1998 and 1999 Mika Hakkinen raced the Ilmor engines to the Formula 1 World Championship.

and (my highlight)

In late 2002, Mercedes-Benz elected to begin a phased buyout of Ilmor. The Special Projects Group found that this limited opportunities to expand its business portfolio and so Roger and Mario elected to buy Special Projects from Mercedes, along with the Ilmor name. This was accomplished by the end of June 2005 and a new Ilmor was born. Ilmor is now led by Steve Miller, an engineer with more than two decades of success in US racing.

[WhiteBlue]

It is a common myth with McLaren fans that Mercedes and McLaren have an unconditional supply deal until 2015. This is not true. Under certain conditions McLaren could be a Mercedes customer until that time.

source
The partnership between McLaren Mercedes has been in place since 1995 and ended its 15th joint Formula 1 season in 2009. The change to the form of cooperation is taking place by mutual agreement. Mercedes-Benz and McLaren will continue to co-operate with each other and the supply of engines could continue until 2015.

You're quoting from a news article, not a press release. The actual press release, source of much myth and mystery...

Mercedes-Benz: to power McLaren’s Formula 1 cars until 2015

Having begun in 1995, the McLaren/Mercedes-Benz partnership is already one of the longest engine-supply associations in Formula 1 history; 2009 was its 15th consecutive year and 2015 will be its 21st consecutive year, by which time it will have become by some margin the longest such association in Formula 1 history. Both the McLaren Group and Daimler AG were therefore committed to securing its continuation as part of a realigned long-term strategic alliance, and to have provided mechanisms whereby the partnership may continue beyond 2015. The team will continue to be known as Vodafone McLaren Mercedes, its distinctive silver-with-red livery will remain unchanged, and Mercedes-Benz will continue as both an engine supplier and a partner.

I'm sorry to correct you but I believe the text I have posted is a reprint of the identical press release. I do remember the German text. The original English text can be checked at the Daimler web site: http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-7153-1 ... 0-0-0.html

The text you have posted is not the Mercedes press release from 16 November 2009. I believe it is the McLaren press release which is faked to look like a joint Merc/McLaren release. You have not provided a source to support your assertion and I think you will find some mixup if you check your sources. If you look down at the personal quotes you find that only McLaren's Ron Dennis is cited. In a real partnership release McLaren would normally also cite Haug or Zetsche.

The McLaren release was a masterpiece of desinformation. Ron can be really proud of that. It created more false impressions than actual information.

[Pup]

I'm sorry to correct you but I believe the text I have posted is a reprint of the identical press release. I do remember the German text. The original text can be checked at http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-7153-1 ... 0-0-0.html

The text you have posted is not the Mercedes press release from 16 November 2009. You have not provided a source to support your assertion and I think you will find some mixup if you check your sources.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/13785
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default ... ryId=20989
http://www.formula1journal.com/2009/11/ ... .html#more
etc.

If periodic renewal of the contract is up to McLaren, it would explain the difference, since legally Mercedes couldn't guarantee it's continuation. Even so, it would still mean that McLaren's engine supply is guaranteed at least through 2015, and perhaps longer. And if McLaren can indeed opt out whenever they want, then it makes their own engine program all the more feasible.

[WhiteBlue]

I'm sorry to correct you but I believe the text I have posted is a reprint of the identical press release. I do remember the German text. The original text can be checked at http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-7153-1 ... 0-0-0.html

The text you have posted is not the Mercedes press release from 16 November 2009. You have not provided a source to support your assertion and I think you will find some mixup if you check your sources.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/13785
http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default ... ryId=20989
http://www.formula1journal.com/2009/11/ ... .html#more
etc.

If periodic renewal of the contract is up to McLaren, it would explain the difference, since legally Mercedes couldn't guarantee it's continuation. Even so, it would still mean that McLaren's engine supply is guaranteed at least through 2015, and perhaps longer. And if McLaren can indeed opt out whenever they want, then it makes their own engine program all the more feasible.

Your sources have all reprinted the McLaren release which falsely claims to be a joint release by the companies that announced the end of the partnership. Tomba fell for the same spin as many other UK F1 sites. The true Mercedes text is on their web site and I have given the URL for it. It is very clear in the wording that the previous partnership changes to cooperation. It is also clear that the supply of engines until 2015 is an option and not a contractual reality as McLaren make believe. Logically your assertion that the supply is assured until 2015 is faulty. If Mercedes say they see the supply as one possible outcome they must have a legal option to terminate. Otherwise they would not give a different information than McLaren. The underlying issue for the termination of the partnership was the separate automotive program. A company like Daimler would never give legal options exclusively into the hands of their competitors.

The press release does not explicitly explain when the partnership ends and the cooperation starts but further press releases in the last weeks have confirmed that the share holding of Mercedes in McLaren was terminated in 2011. So 2011 is most likely the last year of the partnership with exclusive veto rights by McLaren over the supply of Mercedes F1 power trains. This is also in accordance with previous press reports about such veto rights.

I believe that McLaren would be unwise to develop their own F1 V8 just for one year. They most likely will continue to buy customer engines and KERS from Mercedes. The 2013 turbo engine would be the logical point in time to switch to their own design and engine make. Time will tell if McLaren see it the same way.

[Pup]

You're saying that the McLaren press release is lying.



I gave a... no, wait...

Sorry, that required two eyerolls.

I gave a perfectly logical reason why the press releases might be different, which doesn't require one of the parties to be lying: Mclaren has a guaranteed supply; Mercedes does not have a guaranteed customer. Not everything in life has to be so dramatic, and not everything involving McLaren has to have nefarious undertones.

McLaren say they have a guaranteed supply through 2015, and there's no reason not to believe them.

[Pup]

Also, "the true Mercedes text" - gotta love it.