Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
andrew wrote:
It is understandable that imediately after an event someone is angry. If you recall back to when Vettel had calmed down and was interviewed he took his part of the blame. If anything he took too much of the blame.
Red Bull PR on the other hand was questionable.
Well, Hamilton was angry too, immediately after the event. Later he went to the stewards with a pre-emptive apology.
And Vettel did not take too much blame. See the interview posted above.It was for the world to see that he made a steering error and drove into Webber. The videos are unequivocal.
Pre-emptive apology? McLaren PR BS more like. He got caught out shooting his mouth off yet again, only this time it could have had serious implications. I read that he may yet face further action for is comments on the race stewards.
As for Turkey 2010 I don't agree with your assessment but as this is off topic it is best to let it lie.
jamsbong wrote:To me, the "Villain of the Day" would be Hamilton in Monaco race. He not only took out Massa (indirectly) and Maldonado (directly). He later blame them for not giving way so he can pass, doesn't he realise those guys are not backmarkers?
How exactly did he take out Massa?
Massa's accident was in no way related to the touch at the hairpin.
I guess not. but I still think Massa didn't have to crash out if only Hamilton was pushing him wide.
Obviously from my avatar you can see I'm a big Lewis fan but I'm also an Alonso fan btw...strange? no...I just like great drivers. And Lewi's ability in the car is that of an exceptionally good (maybe one day great?) driver.
His comments after the race were, at worst, ill advised and stupid. He was, however, joking and that is plainly clear to see. It was a crass and stupid joke made in the heat of the moment.
I recall Alonso losing his cool in 2006 claiming his team weren't behind him, I recall Schumi once claiming that David Coulthard one "tried to kill" him. Its sport, emotions run high, this stuff happens.
I am glad to see however that Lewis afterwards went to the FIA and apologised for his comments.
Like I said, his "Ali G" comment was stupid, but he was not genuinely playing the race card. Anyone who genuinely thinks otherwise needs to learn how to read body language.
With regards to the incidents he got his penalties for:
Incident with Massa: To me, this is 100% Massa's fault. BUT, and its a BIG but. I don't believe either of them deserve a penalty. This is why:
Look at the race footage from overhead, look at the lines of the two cars in front, then look at Massa's. Mass turned in approximately one full cars length early. It does make you question is Lewis was right when he claimed on the radio that Massa'a move was "deliberate". I think it was, not in a malicious way, more like Massa suddenly saw the Mclaren and instinctively took a defensive line. The outcome was that Massa didn't give Lewis the space, which is counter-productive as Lewis is committed to the move, he cannot brake any harder lol.
Incident with Maldonado: On this occasion I feel Lewis is to take some share of the blame. The move was optimistic. However Maldonado, if he had any sense at all (running a good race, maybe you might like to avoid contact???) should have maybe tried to leave some room.
Now, I know it sounds at this point like I'm saying "leave room for Lewis to just pass you"...I'm not. What I mean is a great example of how this should be done was Lewis's move on Schumi. And more to the point, Schumi's driving:
Lewis made the move, like the two above, it surprised the driver in front, Schumacher turned in, but when he saw the Mclaren he left room, and still attacked the courner fighting (but avoiding contact) with Hamilton, tho eventually losing out.
The fact is this, if a driver performs an overtaking move, the majority of the time his cars position will be on the racing line at the corner apex...in this case the car in front needs to make SOME room (not much) so they can both fight the corner. Otherwise contact will occur.
I am fed up of this penalty culture we have now. 22 cars racing, you'd assume they will occasionally make some contact. We want overtaking, and for that drivers take a risk. Sometimes the risk doesn't work out. THAT'S RACING. Hamilton is a racer. Schumi is a racer, Vettel is a racer, Alonso is a racer, Kubica is a racer.
And isn't it funny, how they are all the BEST drivers in this sport???
Sure Lewis' driving may divide opinions, but so did Schumacher's, and so did Senna's. And yet, why are they remembered? Oh yes...they were pretty good weren't they.
All this complaining about "driving standards" if frankly pathetic. GET OVER IT. When a footballer gets injured from an accidental bad tackle we dont see the world complaining. Guess what - mistakes happen.
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.
Spencifer_Murphy wrote:Obviously from my avatar you can see I'm a big Lewis fan but I'm also an Alonso fan btw...strange? no...I just like great drivers. And Lewi's ability in the car is that of an exceptionally good (maybe one day great?) driver.
His comments after the race were, at worst, ill advised and stupid. He was, however, joking and that is plainly clear to see. It was a crass and stupid joke made in the heat of the moment.
I recall Alonso losing his cool in 2006 claiming his team weren't behind him, I recall Schumi once claiming that David Coulthard one "tried to kill" him. Its sport, emotions run high, this stuff happens.
I am glad to see however that Lewis afterwards went to the FIA and apologised for his comments.
Like I said, his "Ali G" comment was stupid, but he was not genuinely playing the race card. Anyone who genuinely thinks otherwise needs to learn how to read body language.
With regards to the incidents he got his penalties for:
Incident with Massa: To me, this is 100% Massa's fault. BUT, and its a BIG but. I don't believe either of them deserve a penalty. This is why:
Look at the race footage from overhead, look at the lines of the two cars in front, then look at Massa's. Mass turned in approximately one full cars length early. It does make you question is Lewis was right when he claimed on the radio that Massa'a move was "deliberate". I think it was, not in a malicious way, more like Massa suddenly saw the Mclaren and instinctively took a defensive line. The outcome was that Massa didn't give Lewis the space, which is counter-productive as Lewis is committed to the move, he cannot brake any harder lol.
Incident with Maldonado: On this occasion I feel Lewis is to take some share of the blame. The move was optimistic. However Maldonado, if he had any sense at all (running a good race, maybe you might like to avoid contact???) should have maybe tried to leave some room.
Now, I know it sounds at this point like I'm saying "leave room for Lewis to just pass you"...I'm not. What I mean is a great example of how this should be done was Lewis's move on Schumi. And more to the point, Schumi's driving:
Lewis made the move, like the two above, it surprised the driver in front, Schumacher turned in, but when he saw the Mclaren he left room, and still attacked the courner fighting (but avoiding contact) with Hamilton, tho eventually losing out.
The fact is this, if a driver performs an overtaking move, the majority of the time his cars position will be on the racing line at the corner apex...in this case the car in front needs to make SOME room (not much) so they can both fight the corner. Otherwise contact will occur.
I am fed up of this penalty culture we have now. 22 cars racing, you'd assume they will occasionally make some contact. We want overtaking, and for that drivers take a risk. Sometimes the risk doesn't work out. THAT'S RACING. Hamilton is a racer. Schumi is a racer, Vettel is a racer, Alonso is a racer, Kubica is a racer.
And isn't it funny, how they are all the BEST drivers in this sport???
Sure Lewis' driving may divide opinions, but so did Schumacher's, and so did Senna's. And yet, why are they remembered? Oh yes...they were pretty good weren't they.
All this complaining about "driving standards" if frankly pathetic. GET OVER IT. When a footballer gets injured from an accidental bad tackle we dont see the world complaining. Guess what - mistakes happen.
jamsbong wrote:To me, the "Villain of the Day" would be Hamilton in Monaco race. He not only took out Massa (indirectly) and Maldonado (directly). He later blame them for not giving way so he can pass, doesn't he realise those guys are not backmarkers?
How exactly did he take out Massa?
Massa's accident was in no way related to the touch at the hairpin.
I guess not. but I still think Massa didn't have to crash out if only Hamilton was pushing him wide.
As you can see, Massa actually lets off the throttle in the tunnel and there is absolutely no way you can say that anyone but Massa was responsible for that accident.
Edit: Just to be clear, I'm talking about Massa crashing in the tunnel.
Last edited by wrigs on 30 May 2011, 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
That looked strange, Wonder if he maybe got out to hot and spun his tires before the tunnel or if he simply let of the throttle which doesn´t make any sense at all unless he either had some mechanical problems or just wanted to let Hamilton pass, both very unlikely.
Loews is for sure a racing incident, both got surprised at what really happened when they stuck together and sure you can blame Hamilton for being to eager but on the other hand you could blame massa for leaving it wide open.
Especially when you have Hamilton behind you, man i would defend my position with everything i had and forget about the people ahead
it was clearly massa's fault! how i can tell is that if you watch the collision again, if massa wasn't blocking then he wouldn't hit the back of webber! his front wing hits webber! This clearly shows he blocked him!!!!!!
bentley321 wrote:it was clearly massa's fault! how i can tell is that if you watch the collision again, if massa wasn't blocking then he wouldn't hit the back of webber! his front wing hits webber! This clearly shows he blocked him!!!!!!
It's clear that massa takes a different line from normal – as you say, he's inside Webber's line, despite following him directly round the corner on the same line every other lap. That said, I still think this one was Hamilton's fault.
Massa was setting up a wider Apex, you can´t blame him for that.
Hamilton then realised what Massa was going to do and they collided.
It was not Massas fault one bit actually. He just did not have in mind that Hamilton was behind him and probably would try to overtake him if he so much as gave him an inch.
Massa and Hamilton took 2 completely different lines through the corner. Both of them crosses each other halfway out of the corner.
HampusA wrote:Massa was setting up a wider Apex, you can´t blame him for that.
Hamilton then realised what Massa was going to do and they collided.
It was not Massas fault one bit actually. He just did not have in mind that Hamilton was behind him and probably would try to overtake him if he so much as gave him an inch.
Massa and Hamilton took 2 completely different lines through the corner. Both of them crosses each other halfway out of the corner.
Given that Massa had taken Webber's line every other time, I do think you can blame him a small amount – but Hamilton was very overambitious here, and it was certainly his fault.
HampusA wrote:Massa was setting up a wider Apex, you can´t blame him for that.
Hamilton then realised what Massa was going to do and they collided.
It was not Massas fault one bit actually. He just did not have in mind that Hamilton was behind him and probably would try to overtake him if he so much as gave him an inch.
Massa and Hamilton took 2 completely different lines through the corner. Both of them crosses each other halfway out of the corner.
Given that Massa had taken Webber's line every other time, I do think you can blame him a small amount – but Hamilton was very overambitious here, and it was certainly his fault.
It's also worth noting that Lewis actually wasn't using full lock until the exit of the corner. He could probably have done more get a tighter turn radius, so to at least not just bump Massa out of the way like it was bumper cars. That said, with Massa turning in a lot earlier than what could be expected and hitting Webber as well, I'd simply write this off as a racing incident.
HampusA wrote:Massa was setting up a wider Apex, you can´t blame him for that.
Hamilton then realised what Massa was going to do and they collided.
It was not Massas fault one bit actually. He just did not have in mind that Hamilton was behind him and probably would try to overtake him if he so much as gave him an inch.
Massa and Hamilton took 2 completely different lines through the corner. Both of them crosses each other halfway out of the corner.
Given that Massa had taken Webber's line every other time, I do think you can blame him a small amount – but Hamilton was very overambitious here, and it was certainly his fault.
Sure but still, Massa is free to take whatever line he pleases through the corner.
In all fairness, it´s Monaco, --- happens
And i´m glad it does actually.
wrigs wrote:It's also worth noting that Lewis actually wasn't using full lock until the exit of the corner. He could probably have done more get a tighter turn radius, so to at least not just bump Massa out of the way like it was bumper cars. That said, with Massa turning in a lot earlier than what could be expected and hitting Webber as well, I'd simply write this off as a racing incident.
I´m not sure about this one, a tighter line would probably mean understeer.
He´s on the limit and when he turns into the corner with the speed he has, mid-corner and exit is already decided.
When you look at the footage, has anyone noticed how long the cars are now going round the hairpin? It's like the drivers still think they can overtake into there but because the cars are so long now that it simply won't fit.
