Mclaren Honda 2015

[zeph]

What i find weird is that in the last weeks McLaren upped the pressure on Honda partly due to monetary reasons. You don't do that if you know full well from Race 1 (or actually well before, the decision would have to be made way earlier) that the Season is lost right?

[s]
"title sponsorships are a thing of the past" - Ron Dennis
[/s]

[drunkf1fan]

When every manufacturer is on its very first season perfomance is refered to manufacturers with same experience than you, that´s very different to competing with manufacturers who have a whole season experience when you have no experience at all. Perfomance is always dictated by the comparison with the rest of the teams

Also, my impression is on first season manufacturers focused more on reliablity than perfomance. All of them tried to be as fast as posible, but in first season there was a lot of talk about lack of reliability, how many retirements we were going to see, etc. so I think most of them thought reliability could be a key factor, or that´s my impression after watching 2014 retirements, they were a lot less than expected. But Honda tried to build a PU to compete with the best, so they focused on perfomance more than reliability, probably with the intention to later solve the reliability problems without using tokens, since some retirements this season were not a problem, it was a test season anycase

Unluckily they missed both targets, but I think you can´t compare first season of Honda with first season of the rest, the targets were different

Quite regardless of the goals, the point was that all three made significantly better engines than Honda has without any on track testing. Track testing is being used as a crutch, the vast amount of engine R&D is being done in labs off tracks, tested on dynos and going back to redesign stage.

ON track testing can direct where they believe they need more power and feedback on which bits brake is obviously useful but things will break on the engines running in the labs.

AS for the goals, Mercedes went for a risky/aggressive design that was absolutely intended to have good performance. Every engine manufacturer is attempting to make an engine that both perform and can finish races. It's illogical and a cop out to suggest anyone would attempt to have different design goals. How would finishing every race dead last help anyone? Lets say Mclaren/HOnda had reliability... but finish where they have, meaningless. If they only focused on performance, were 3 seconds faster than everyone else but failed on lap 3 every race. The goal of every manufacturer is the same, pace and reliability, Merc hit the target on both, Ferrari mostly hit on reliability didn't get performance first year, improved it drastically this year. Renault did okay on performance less good on reliability and managed to go backwards this year.

Honda made a bad engine, nothing more or less complicated than that and they had a 3-4 month head start on track testing as opposed to the other teams in their first year. Track testing isn't and hasn't been the relevant factor in why Honda are failing.

[Webber2011]

Thanks Webber2011, that just confirms that the PU can be as powerful as the Ferrari (as Arai said) in absolute perfect cicrumstances for a very short Time. Of Course that is totally useless in every practical Application, so i think they use less ERS every Time to have at least something for the entire Lap. And Boom, we're still a LONG ways off of the other PU's......

Well, at least there's Marussia so we're not dead last. I fully expected Spa (and Monza too) to be painful, but not THAT bad. It's frustrating. All hopes on Singapore it seems.

No worries mate.

I admire your optimism, but the scary thing for me is this,

The bad news for McLaren fans is that Boullier says there is no chance of improvement in this area until the winter, because it will cost Honda "too many tokens" to make the changes now.

If nothing can be done this season, I can picture the Merc's and Ferrari making more improvements and Honda left playing catch up again at the start of next year.
(I'm not sure where they are with regard to tokens, but haven't both said they would introduce more upgrades before the winter break ? ? ?)

I fear more pain in 2016 unfortunately.

[Andres125sx]

Quite regardless of the goals, the point was that all three made significantly better engines than Honda has without any on track testing.

My point is you can´t compare. First season of all the rest was a season they all started in same conditions, so they all had some chance to make the best PU and/or compete for the championship

OTOH Honda didn´t start in same conditions, but with one year delay, wich for a whole new PU not used before is a lot. That´s the reason they all said from the begining 2015 was going to be some sort of test season. No other manufacturer said that in their first season, what proves their goals are too different to compare



Anycase their PU is failing so much in all aspects I can´t argue much more than this

[horse]

I think that Honda's lack of experience in the KERS era is being shown. They have plenty of pedigree for turbo and non-turbo F1 engines, but they have had no experience of using electric power alongside those engines. I do not think it is coincidence that Mercedes are leading the present field of engines, as they were the first to master KERS (with McLaren) and had the most reliable electrical power systems of the KERS era.

With Honda not bringing on any external help for this project, they are having to learn not just the lessons of this set of regulations but also those of the 5 years previous to that, which is why I believe they got it so wrong this year. I also believe that failing on the track is the only way for them to learn the lessons that the other manufacturers have done since 2009 and hopefully produce innovative solutions to those problems, which can move them up the field.

[Sixbarboost]

Maximum Speeds & Speed Trap - Belgian Grand Prix

http://i59.tinypic.com/ziric9.png

So, the by spanish paper reported 25 km/h down on top speed was not that far off the mark, what do you think Hollus?

[damager21]

I am just wondering if Honda is only to be blamed for the current lack of speed. If one was to compare Jenson's best time in Q1 with Lewis best time in Q2 on soft tyres, the difference is a staggering 3.5 secs.

I did some quick calculation which I know is not completely accurate but what I get is that with 15 kmph on an average down on speed, McLaren is 2.3 secs slower than Mercedes because of the Honda engine. I am wondering where is the rest 1.2 secs getting lost?

How did I arrive at this:
*Circuit length is 7.004 km
*65% of the time is spent by drivers on full throttle which means about 4.553 km on full throttle
*Thus, 15 kmph down on Mercedes translates to 2.3 secs

https://vid.me/of6y

[bauc]

Wake me up when its all over......

I can't take this anymore, even for a HC Mclaren fan like me who has a ton of patience & hope...this is just too much.

[Dipesh1995]

I am just wondering if Honda is only to be blamed for the current lack of speed. If one was to compare Jenson's best time in Q1 with Lewis best time in Q2 on soft tyres, the difference is a staggering 3.5 secs.

I did some quick calculation which I know is not completely accurate but what I get is that with 15 kmph on an average down on speed, McLaren is 2.3 secs slower than Mercedes because of the Honda engine. I am wondering where is the rest 1.2 secs getting lost?

How did I arrive at this:
*Circuit length is 7.004 km
*65% of the time is spent by drivers on full throttle which means about 4.553 km on full throttle
*Thus, 15 kmph down on Mercedes translates to 2.3 secs

https://vid.me/of6y

Yes but the time deficit isn't just coming from being slow down the straights. Having a lack of power also affects lots of other parameters such as the preparation of tyres i.e temperature and also downforce they are able to run for s2. Arai says that the car was running with too much downforce but surely then the McLaren would be reasonably quick in s2 but they're not. Also the acceleration out of the corners can also be considered as the cause of some of the time deficit where the ERS is at it's most valuable and since acceleration is the time derivative of speed. All of these factors could add up to the majority of the 1.2 seconds. Granted, the chassis isn't as good as the Merc but it isn't 1.2 seconds off either.

[max_speed]

i am more pissed off at the fact that they keep working for this long...talk about upgrade, upgrade is worth 3% and that 3% also does not get elected anywhere.its not.F1 is competitive world you have to make it count,every upgrade. when you know you are that bad, keep your mouth shut dot talk abut beating ferrari's, podium by year end etc. i dot get how come button and jenson sound so upbeat, may be millions keep them motivated. Arai, he should just stay sway from media.

[Jef Patat]

i dot get how come button and jenson sound so upbeat, may be millions keep them motivated.

I think the same is true for fernando and alonso

[Jef Patat]

Alonso on the 105 place penalty:

We should have a cake or something – I think it is a world record!

[diffuser]

Considering that they're gonna handcuff them with a lack of testing next year, they should allow them to borrow tokens from next year to be able to build the PU now and test during the 2015 season.


It is stupid to force them to go through the rest of the 2015 season not implementing major PU changes (which they could test). From a fan perspective, it would give us something to watch/hope.

[Sixbarboost]

As this is going nowhere, a 3% power increase is nothing, I wonder if it would be allowed for Honda develop a new PU from scratch and simply badge it Acura?

[GoranF1]

Race pace much better...Alonso is at the moment lapping 1.8 slower than top 3 and less than 1 seconds compared to cars in front of him.
Will be good in Singapoure.