Purist vs Spectacle?

[SeijaKessen]

I wonder if someone did start a new prototype series outside of FIA sanctioning, how receptive would the current teams be to making the jump? Or would we get to go back to the days of privateers doing their thing?

Well, that was the whole point of F1 wasn't it. A manufacturer could come along and build a car and go racing. If they got results, people would want that. If Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, VW, Citroen, Subaru, Porsche etc all got together, told the FIA and the rest of them to 'shove it' and they all start their own category to a) show off their wares, b) push technology forward and c) put on a great show, I think they would dominate the racing audience. People will watch and people will buy on Monday.

F1 is no longer about the cars. It's about a couple of people making huge $$$$. It's also completely transparent.

I do think a group of companies do need to tell the FIA to go shove it.

They've been stifling all innovation in F1 for the last 18 years.

Everything has been slowly reduced to finding loopholes which are growing ever smaller since the rules are so restrictive, that there isn't a lot left to be done.

I'm surprised the F1 hasn't just contracted out a manufacturer to make one chassis, and the teams can go stuff motors in.

Actually though, sports car racing is more relevant for automotive manufacturers now. It's a better way to test concepts to see whether or not they can operate within normal driving conditions.

[Cam]

Actually though, sports car racing is more relevant for automotive manufacturers now. It's a better way to test concepts to see whether or not they can operate within normal driving conditions.

The tech needs to find a place in real world uses or it's hard to justify the cost. This is why they're all probably whinging about the cost - there's no market to recoup the investment. Far enough too.

Finding ways to increase fuel efficiency, power, grip, longevity etc can all filter to the domestic and commercial markets. F-ducts could be integrated into trucks for long haul aero assistance to increase fuel efficiency etc. Reactive Suspension can go straight into my new VW. This gives teams the chance to earn some cash for the innovations and retain viability. It's not really rocket science is it.

Open wheel racing has a place but you need to differentiate yourself. If F1 is so concerned about being here it 5-10 years time, forget tyre lotteries to draw a crowd, bring back the tech, open up the regs and bring in the manufactures. Problem solved - purist happy - spectacle to sell tickets - no lottery. Best combo wins.

Hey, Dietrich Mateschitz - you can make this happen! Imagine it - every new Renault comes with a case of Red Bull!

[Red Schneider]

F-ducts could be integrated into trucks for long haul aero assistance to increase fuel efficiency etc.

I'm no aerodynamicist, but how the hell would this work?

[Cam]

F-ducts could be integrated into trucks for long haul aero assistance to increase fuel efficiency etc.

I'm no aerodynamicist, but how the hell would this work?

LOL, neither am I and I have no idea. I guess I was eluding to the principle in a commercial aspect and perhaps that was not the best example.

[Fat_T0ny]

Sounds like you purists only want F1 to be about the car. Drivers championship would be irrelevant if you purists had your way.

Why can't it be equal parts driver/car? Or do you want hacks like Eddie Irvine winning championships.

Look at the current cars. There no where near the same. Not even close to becoming a 1 make series.

Because the pace of all the contenders is too close suddenly F1 is a lottery, too dumbed down. If F1 cars are so simple how come the backmarkers can't crack the top ten?

If F1 wasn't about making money there would be no F1. Real world requires money dreamers.

[bhall]

Oh, Rotund_Anthony.

It's good that there are some who enjoy today's brand of F1. Otherwise, all these cars with standard dimension wings; standard track widths; engines of standard configuration, displacement, vee angle, bore, stroke, air intake, center of gravity, valve layout, metallurgy; standard transmissions; standard wheels and tires; standard weight distribution; standard KERS; standard electronics; standard cooling configurations; standard brakes...well, they'd all just go to waste.

Where, oh where, would we be in the real world? I'm sold.

Let us never return to an era that allowed hacks like Senna, Prost, Fangio, Moss, Clark, Lauda, Stewart, Brabham, Hakkinen, Schumacher, et al, to capture the imaginations of F1 fans around the world as they unfairly piloted unequal machinery on tracks paved with the tears of the masses to vainglorious heights.

Instead, let's embrace the current formula. Let's drink liberally from the Cup of Truth which tells us, "Yes, my people. Young Maldonado eats at the same table as five World Champion race winners this year - sorry, Michael, not enough room." Let's dance with Strategy or Fortune - whichever happens to show up that weekend. And let's build Pirelli marble castles so that our imaginations may truly run free.

Most of all, let's not forget the kids. We must guide them faithfully toward dreams that are real. No more, "I want to be a police officer," or, "I want to be an astronaut." No. Let us gently guide them to reality until the call "I want to win the lottery!" triumphantly reverberates from sea to shining sea.

[myurr]

Actually though, sports car racing is more relevant for automotive manufacturers now. It's a better way to test concepts to see whether or not they can operate within normal driving conditions.

The tech needs to find a place in real world uses or it's hard to justify the cost. This is why they're all probably whinging about the cost - there's no market to recoup the investment. Far enough too.

Finding ways to increase fuel efficiency, power, grip, longevity etc can all filter to the domestic and commercial markets. F-ducts could be integrated into trucks for long haul aero assistance to increase fuel efficiency etc. Reactive Suspension can go straight into my new VW. This gives teams the chance to earn some cash for the innovations and retain viability. It's not really rocket science is it.

Open wheel racing has a place but you need to differentiate yourself. If F1 is so concerned about being here it 5-10 years time, forget tyre lotteries to draw a crowd, bring back the tech, open up the regs and bring in the manufactures. Problem solved - purist happy - spectacle to sell tickets - no lottery. Best combo wins.

Hey, Dietrich Mateschitz - you can make this happen! Imagine it - every new Renault comes with a case of Red Bull!

I think you need to ask yourself some fundamental questions if you have any hope of turning this into a practical proposition.

1) Take a circuit, say Spa. What do you think the target lap time should be? Because in a completely unrestricted series with all these technologies you talk about you couldn't have a human driver because the car would be too fast. The human body has upper limits in terms of the G-force that can be sustained and reaction times.

2) With all these latest technologies what jobs do you want the driver themselves to have to do? A lot of the banned technologies, such as ABS and traction control, are tools that help the driver do a better job or do the driver's job for them. How much involvement do you want the driver to actually have and how would you enforce that?

3) If this is a racing series, how are you going to qualify the cars so that you have some racing? With all the technologies previously discussed the cars are going to be consistent and easy to drive, so having them qualify in speed order will lead to races where the field just spreads out a bit. If the cars are perfect then there would not be any racing at all as drivers could not make a mistake, so how will you either enforce imperfection or introduce racing?

4) How are you going to control costs and ensure competition? With unlimited technologies you need as close to an unlimited budget as possible, and that is unsustainable for the vast majority of the grid. Instead you'll end up with one or two teams dominating year after year because they can afford to develop new technologies whilst the rest are perpetually trying to play catch up. How will you ensure intra-season interest when one car wins all the races because they have a technology none of the others has?

5) How are you going to maintain commercial interest in this 'sport'? If technology can dominate the series by giving certain cars an edge then how will you attract newcomers to the sport? If only a couple of teams can afford to develop front running cars, why would other manufacturers bother spending vast sums of money just to be also rans? How many different manufacturers do you think an unlimited series could attract?

6) As others have pointed out, if it's all about the cars and the technology then why have a driver's championship?

I also find it amusing that the 'purists' have hijacked the word 'purist' and branded all dissenters as favouring 'spectacle'. Why is a driver dominated series a spectacle and impure compared to a car dominated series? Each is pure and each is just a spectacle when viewed from differing points of view. One favours the purity of the drivers battling it out in broadly equal machinery, able to make a difference, and the other favours the purity of the technology where engineers are unrestrained in what they can do but would inevitably lead to a series where the driver has little impact beyond just being good enough and fit enough.

[bhall]

One favours the purity of the drivers battling it out in broadly equal machinery, able to make a difference...

Take two of these, and call me in the morning.

[myurr]

One favours the purity of the drivers battling it out in broadly equal machinery, able to make a difference...

Take two of these, and call me in the morning.

Why thank you sir for your thoughtful and insightful reply that so clearly addresses all my points and contributes with infinite greatness to the discussion. I can see now that I was utterly wrong to call into question anything other than a completely unrestricted series and that it is the ultimate in purity with no possibility of other view points even existing. So thank you sir for taking the time to illuminate the path to truth, justice and all that is good in the world.

[bhall]

Though you write long responses, I've noticed you don't really read them. So, I just thought I'd help you out a little with something that's a bit easier to digest.

You're welcome, big guy!

[myurr]

Though you write long responses, I've noticed you don't really read them. So, I just thought I'd help you out a little with something that's a bit easier to digest.

You're welcome, big guy!

I do read responses, always have unless I'm away from a computer for an extended period so that reading every last response would take too long. What I think you're confusing with not reading posts, is not suddenly agreeing with them even though they blindly make the same points over and over and ignore points others have raised. I'm sure you'll accuse me of the exact same thing. In the past you've also accused me several times of addressing points you hadn't raised, even though they'd been raised by others in the thread - suggesting you yourself had not read the thread properly.

In any case if you make a constructive reply to my post that I feel raises several very important points that the 'purists' in the thread have consistently failed to address then I'll be happy to read your reply thoroughly and respond accordingly.

[raymondu999]

One favours the purity of the drivers battling it out in broadly equal machinery, able to make a difference...

Take two of these, and call me in the morning.

Why thank you sir for your thoughtful and insightful reply that so clearly addresses all my points and contributes with infinite greatness to the discussion. I can see now that I was utterly wrong to call into question anything other than a completely unrestricted series and that it is the ultimate in purity with no possibility of other view points even existing. So thank you sir for taking the time to illuminate the path to truth, justice and all that is good in the world.

All hail bhallg2k the arbiter of truth!

[bhall]

EDIT: I think it's pretty well established by now that this thread is wholly motivated by emotional responses. And trying to get people of disparate backgrounds to agree upon an emotional response is like trying to get people of disparate backgrounds to agree upon an emotional response. It ain't gonna happen.

Points will be raised, addressed and then re-raised and addressed in different form, and the whole thing turns (has turned) into a downward spiral. I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing, because I'm me. So, just relax and have fun with it.

[myurr]

That just sounds like you can't address the points that I've raised. Feel free to argue that specific points are emotionally biased of flawed, but to blanket all of them as such is just rude. Doubly so when you've just accused me of being too lazy to read other peoples responses or address the points they've raised. Pot meet kettle.

[bhall]

I know you like to think that I can't address your points, and that's fine. The problem is that you continually raise points that have already been addressed. So, one is left to assume that you either don't read them or you can't understand them. I'm giving you intelligence the benefit of the doubt when I assume you don't read them.

But, look; it's really quite simple here. If one likes this brand of racing, one will look for ways to justify it. If one dislikes this brand of racing, one will look for ways to deride it. That's the emotional response each and every one of us in this thread is guilty of espousing.

C'mon, only the charlatans like us play here. The truly technical people stay the hell away because they know there's no objective rhyme or reason to be discerned and illuminated. It's all subjective, every last ounce of it.