Red Bull RB5

[tk421]

News to me...

I dunno, it's only been on the car for the past 6 months...

And the taste? Funny cause I have a friend that controls all the rebdull vending machines in south Florida, but I havent heard a word about it.

If you'd like to discuss soft drinks, this is the wrong forum.

Notice the poll on F1T's homepage about the most innovative 2009 car. I wonder how much the votes would change if the RB5 were there...The RB5's front wing? Stunning. Please bring on Melbourne! =D>

[TRICKLE69]

Is this Red bull Cola on the rear wing end plate a new product?

It's not new. And the advertisement has been on the rear wing end plates since last year's Euro GP at Valencia.

News to me... And the taste? Funny cause I have a friend that controls all the rebdull vending machines in south Florida, but I havent heard a word about it.

Where in South Florida?

[xpensive]

A sidetrack here, but as a Design Engineering manager, I have followed the discussion over the fragility of F1 components with interest.
What you do is to use the most adequate input data available, typically load-case, material-properties and different practical aspects, to optimize the size and shape of the component with the use of FEA or whatever. However, there will always be uncertainties within the input data as well as method of calculation, where fatigue is one of the more prominent, why you enter a "safety-factor". If you build a bridge, this could be 10 or something, while if you work for Boeing substantially less.

This is really the trick, how far to trust your calculations. As an example, by sheer strength values you could lift your Ferrari 612 with one regular M6 (1/4") bolt, but would you do it?

[Crabbia]

on the reliability issue i dont care if this thing runs for 10 laps and dies, the ideas and concepts used in this car are fresh and trully 'clean sheet' stuff, and its giving me new hope that F1 isnt enterning a dark age of design...

on the realiability of the rear end suspension components, i think for sure there is some trouble with the heat, no1 else has tried to thread the hot air from the exhausts through the suspension components quite like the RB5 has. and i do think these guys arent stupid, at the very least they would have been aware of the compromise(s) they are making to do this and would have designed it accordingly.

2 points to think about that might contribute to this being possible without the rear suspension components getting too hot:

no other car has their exhaust outlets so far back, with the exception of maybe renault. I think this allows the flow of the exhaust to be more contained over the rear components, and less 'diffusion' of hot gasses over that small distance between the exhaust tips and the rear suspention components.

No other car has such a fluid contour over the top of its sidepods, and no other sidepods end quite so low. so maybe there is better flow of cool air over the side pods consequently over the exhaust outlets.

its just something to think about since designers like Newey dont think of the functionality of one part, but they think of all the car's parts interactions with eachother and then start thinking about the individual parts.

It's is admitidly a weak justification of my opinion but just look at the fluidity in design of the RB5 compared to the BMW say...

the BMW's nose was deemed by a supercomputer to be the best solution, but would a super computer think of a lower rear suspension linkage that connects straight to the gearbox...

after all this optimisation, its just nice to see a little inginuity fighting back...

[kilcoo316]

However, there will always be uncertainties within the input data as well as method of calculation,

Of course - which is why you validate your tools.

"Results" from a non-validated tool are to be laughed at.

I would be quite sure they have verified and validated the hell out of whatever they used to simulate that. If they didn't, I'm very disappointed in a failure to follow basic good engineering practice.


But anyway, heat transfer from a hot jet to a surface, and the shrouding of structural elements isn't all that complicated.

Hot jets have been experimented and computed to death, and shrouding of struct elements from intense heat has been going on since, well... long before Vostok-1.

[xpensive]

"Validate your tools" is a very interesting expression kilcoo, care to elaborate on that, possibly through an example?

[blobslosak]

“Following a successful shakedown, we stopped the car as a precautionary measure because the gearbox oil temperature was beginning to rise,” team principal Christian Horner told Red Bull's official website.

With such a tightly packed rear end, could cooling be an issue for the RB5?

[myurr]

One question for the aero guys - both the McLaren and the Redbull look like they've made the least effort to move the weight of the car forwards, and both have gone for a wider front wing aimed at generating more down force with less air being deflected round the front wheels by the end plates.

Does this point to these teams running more front end down force to compensate for a more rearward weight distribution? As opposed to the teams that look like they've gone for as much weight at the front as physically possible focusing on mechanical grip and not looking like they have as much front end downforce.

If so would this give them the advantage of more traction (thanks to more weight at the back) with more grip at the front in medium and fast corners (thanks to the extra front end down force), at the expense of some mechanical grip at the front in slow corners and possibly being slower to heat the front tyres?

Interesting to see the compromises each team has chosen.

[tarzoon]

"Validate your tools" is a very interesting expression kilcoo, care to elaborate on that, possibly through an example?

You validate your tools when you compare the results achieved with either real measurements or any other proven tool. Some quite complex maths and statistics can be used for the comparison.

The simulation tools (either CFD or wind tunnel or whatever designers want to use) are as good as the quality of the models (once again either a scaled model of a car or computer generated environmental forces, such as wind).

[kilcoo316]

"Validate your tools" is a very interesting expression kilcoo, care to elaborate on that, possibly through an example?

Basically, you try to evaluate the physics of your problem, in this case heat transfer and jet plume flow. If you can find experimental data (or make experimental data) that does both, even better.


As I indicated, there are countless experiments of heat transfer from jets, be they impinging or surface flow.

Such things are important in the field of power generation for instance, another area would be aircraft heat exchangers (remember the 777 that came down at heathrow - the problem was tracked to bad heat exchanger design).

So, you compare your predictive tool to the results of such experiments by trying to replicate it.


The other area is the prediction of the jet (exhaust) flow itself, again, no shortage of test cases. An example of one I've used in the past is NASA TN-D-3601.


Chances are Red Bull did their own in-house tests based on last years car, and then compared that to simulations. From there you can quickly get a feel for how qualitative and quantitatively accurate your simulation tools are.

[djos]

BooYah! 2nd day out and faster than all the other 2009 cars! =D>

.1º 15 Sebastian Buemi Toro Rosso 00:01'20''054 30
.2º 9 Sebastien Vettel Red Bull 00:01'22''397 00:00'02''343 21
.3º 23 Heikki Kovalainen McLaren 00:01'23''313 00:00'03''259 20
.4º 8 Nico Hulkenberg Williams 00:01'24''695 00:00'04''641 23
.5º 6 Nelson Piquet Jr Renault 00:01'29''066 00:00'09''012 05

TheF1.com

Go you good thing!

[Sawtooth-spike]

Test time Mean Nothing.

Prost one year topped the time sheets preseason, but were crap when it counted.

Its all a game of poker at the moment. Nobody want to show there hand.

But i do hope its a quick, I have always liked red bull, they are look more fun loving than some other teams.

[djos]

Test time Mean Nothing.

Prost one year topped the time sheets preseason, but were crap when it counted.

Its all a game of poker at the moment. Nobody want to show there hand.

But i do hope its a quick, I have always liked red bull, they are look more fun loving than some other teams.

True but you cant deny that it's a very good sign when out of the box your car beats all the others who had at least 1 extra week of testing under their belts by a whole second?

[myurr]

True but you cant deny that it's a very good sign when out of the box your car beats all the others who had at least 1 extra week of testing under their belts by a whole second?

You suggesting that Renault are really seven seconds off the pace? For all you know they've been doing low fuel runs whereas others have been concentrating on long runs, or whatever. I'm sure the Redbull is quick, no doubt about it, but it's not going to decimate the field.

[djos]

True but you cant deny that it's a very good sign when out of the box your car beats all the others who had at least 1 extra week of testing under their belts by a whole second?

You suggesting that Renault are really seven seconds off the pace? For all you know they've been doing low fuel runs whereas others have been concentrating on long runs, or whatever. I'm sure the Redbull is quick, no doubt about it, but it's not going to decimate the field.

Well Renault seem to having taken over the "Flying Brick" label previously owned by Toyota so yeah, I reckon they are much slower but prolly only a couple of seconds.

With the 2009 rules it is unlikely that we will see 1.5 seconds covering the whole field for ultimate pace; I suspect the spread could be as much as 5 seconds!