Red Bull exceed fuel flow limit, Ricciardo DSQ at Australian GP

[thomin]

I think the case is quite clear. Whether or not the sensor was faulty is not even the issue. The point is that only the FIA can make that decision. As long as the FIA says that you have to stick to their sensor, that's what you have to do. The team were told to do so before and during the race and it didn't comply. Stupid tactics by Red Bull.

Tim Wright has made this point, but some of you still do not have an understanding of the facts. FIA is stating that RB exceeded the fuel rate. How is the FIA making this judgement? They are basing this judgement on a flow sensor that is known to be out of calibration. This faulty meter is the FIA's only source of data regarding fuel flow.

Brian

Red Bull says it was faulty but only the FIA can make that call and they didn't. On the contrary, they told Red Bull how to run it and Red Bull ignored it. Other teams didn't and they must not be punished for sticking to the rules.

[frosty125]

I think the case is quite clear. Whether or not the sensor was faulty is not even the issue. The point is that only the FIA can make that decision. As long as the FIA says that you have to stick to their sensor, that's what you have to do. The team were told to do so before and during the race and it didn't comply. Stupid tactics by Red Bull.

Tim Wright has made this point, but some of you still do not have an understanding of the facts. FIA is stating that RB exceeded the fuel rate. How is the FIA making this judgement? They are basing this judgement on a flow sensor that is known to be out of calibration. This faulty meter is the FIA's only source of data regarding fuel flow.

Brian

If you read the stewards decision it seems the decision was more to do with RB not using the fuel flow model as deemed by the FIA

D) That regardless of the team’s assertion that the sensor was fault, it is not
within their discretion to run a different fuel flow measurement method without the
permission of the FIA.

As some have commented other teams reduced power so that they complied.

[the EDGE]

I think the case is quite clear. Whether or not the sensor was faulty is not even the issue. The point is that only the FIA can make that decision. As long as the FIA says that you have to stick to their sensor, that's what you have to do. The team were told to do so before and during the race and it didn't comply. Stupid tactics by Red Bull.

Tim Wright has made this point, but some of you still do not have an understanding of the facts. FIA is stating that RB exceeded the fuel rate. How is the FIA making this judgement? They are basing this judgement on a flow sensor that is known to be out of calibration. This faulty meter is the FIA's only source of data regarding fuel flow.

Brian

I think you are overlooking something

"We were then asked to put the sensor from Friday back in to the car and apply an offset. That offset we didn't feel was correct and as we got in to the race we could see there was a significant discrepancy between what the sensor was reading and where our fuel flow, which is the actual injection of fuel into the engine, was stated as."

What the FIA is saying is Redbull exceeded the fuel rate as defined by the measuring device and failed to comply with the same rules followed by every one else.

[Pup]

The stewards' finding essentially follows an old saying in baseball - You can throw a ball, or you can throw a strike; but you haven't thrown either until the umpire calls it.

The FIA's sensor is the umpire - right or wrong, when it calls a ball, it's a ball.

[turbof1]

I think the case is quite clear. Whether or not the sensor was faulty is not even the issue. The point is that only the FIA can make that decision. As long as the FIA says that you have to stick to their sensor, that's what you have to do. The team were told to do so before and during the race and it didn't comply. Stupid tactics by Red Bull.

Tim Wright has made this point, but some of you still do not have an understanding of the facts. FIA is stating that RB exceeded the fuel rate. How is the FIA making this judgement? They are basing this judgement on a flow sensor that is known to be out of calibration. This faulty meter is the FIA's only source of data regarding fuel flow.

Brian

On the other hand there's little else they could have done.

Realise what would happen if they allowed this. Every single team could run sensors or other means of reading the fuel rate at their own standards. This would not only defeat the whole point of the standarized fuel sensor, but also lead to wildspread means of measurement which would turn the fuel rate impossible to check accurately for the FIA.

The fuel sensor has to be more accurate. If 'noise' causes the fuel rate being 4% off, then that's too much. The limit is 100kg/h, not 96. It's absurd to hold teams back in such a clumsy manner.

On the other hand, red bull knew other teams experience the same issue with the sensor. They thought they could gain an advantage over them by not using the obligatory sensor and run it by, although most likely more accurate, more beneficial means, while everybody else was hold back. Simply put: they got greedy, very greedy. They shouldn't play innocent: although they have point, they did got what they deserve.

[jz11]

I think the case is quite clear. Whether or not the sensor was faulty is not even the issue. The point is that only the FIA can make that decision. As long as the FIA says that you have to stick to their sensor, that's what you have to do. The team were told to do so before and during the race and it didn't comply. Stupid tactics by Red Bull.

https://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status ... 1696216064
https://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status ... 5782343680
https://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status ... 3498844161

Quite obviously Red Bull gained an advantage here. I doubt that Ricciardo would have made the podium had Red Bull complied with FIA rules. The FIA provides a sensor to all the teams and they provide measurement method that is the same for everyone. Whether or not you think that sensor or that method sucks is inconsequential, the point is that it is the same for everyone. If you make your own call, violating FIA rules, then not you get an unfair advantage over the other teams and you get disqualified. How Christian Horner or anyone else at Red Bull thought that their move could fly is beyond me...

do you understand what you just said?

basically - fia can look at the data and decide whether the sensor is right or not, whichever they think is working fine or not

those are not regulations any more, it is more like - the result of this race will be decided by us upon whatever sensor we think is not lying today

if that will be RB underlying argument, I fully support their action

for instance, there are rules for world rally car engines to manage max power output of the engine - they didn't put some sophisticated electronic device to monitor air pressure in the intake plenum, they introduced a mechanical restriction - 34mm diameter hole for all the air, that wants to get inside the engine, simple - ZERO place for any arguments, apart from one where toyota was involved

[SectorOne]

Well what a race... first of, congratulations to Rosberg, not a foot wrong and good start.
Mega race by Magnussen, this is exactly what he needs to ensure a spot in the future of Formula 1.

Gutted by Hamilton but at this point i just started laughing when he drove around on 5 cylinders.
Vettel´s car not only had no ERS but that thing sounded like a tractor in the beginning of the race.

-
If you thought the 1 second per lap was all that was there, think again.

"We actually voluntarily reduced our fuel flow rate," he insisted.
"Had we not done that, we would have been five tenths faster yesterday."

- Toto

Then add to the fact that the second fastest car was using more fuel then allowed you might actually be looking at close to 2 seconds per lap in pace.

Boring? Not so fast... Hamilton and Rosberg will have one hell of a battle in the front i think so there could still be some entertainment from those two.

[thomin]

do you understand what you just said?

basically - fia can look at the data and decide whether the sensor is right or not, whichever they think is working fine or not

Exactly. Who else should do it? The teams themselves? These are standard sensors that work the same for everyone. It's not up to the individual team to determine whether or not that is accurate enough.

[turbof1]

It's not a case of working or not working. The fuel sensor works, but due limits in its accuracy, EVERY team has to run a downwards bias.

In other words, the issues red bull had with the sensor, were the same other teams had. The FIA isn't just randomly picking out sensors. All these sensors work for everybody the same way, but red bull thought they could run a higher fuel rate then the others because it isn't accurate enough.

[beelsebob]

I think the case is quite clear. Whether or not the sensor was faulty is not even the issue. The point is that only the FIA can make that decision. As long as the FIA says that you have to stick to their sensor, that's what you have to do. The team were told to do so before and during the race and it didn't comply. Stupid tactics by Red Bull.

Tim Wright has made this point, but some of you still do not have an understanding of the facts. FIA is stating that RB exceeded the fuel rate.

No, the FIA is stating that their homologated sensor recorded a fuel flow rate that was too high. You break the rules exactly when the homologated sensor records a too high fuel flow rate, not exactly when your fuel flow rate is too high.

[Powershift]

for fuel irregularities there is disqualification for daniel ricardo, but for hitting a car from behind (kobayashi on massa) there is no penalty!

and FIA is promoting "SAFETY FIRST"!? WTF!!!

http://m.memegen.com/zqbu4b.jpg

Kobay's rear brakes or KERS harvesting system was proven to be inoperable, so he has found to not be at fault, technical failure of the car

[Powershift]

Makes me wonder, why don't they run a mechanical orifice restrictor in the fuel lines or intake like every other series does.

No signal noise to worry about. The laws of phsyics limit the amount of power you can force through a restrictor...

Exactly what I thought when I first heard of these "measuring devices", the ACO has been running air restrictors forever, FIA used to hand out pop off valves in the old turbo days and many other series run fuel restrictors, does anyone have a reason why the FIA used fuel measuring devices rather than fuel restrictors, I'm pretty sure the teams wanted them since it is them who make the rules.

[Juzh]

Boring? Not so fast... Hamilton and Rosberg will have one hell of a battle in the front i think so there could still be some entertainment from those two.

There will be no battle at the front:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/03/14/m ... scenarios/

This is shaping up to be the dullest season of possibly all times.

[myurr]

It's not a case of working or not working. The fuel sensor works, but due limits in its accuracy, EVERY team has to run a downwards bias.

In other words, the issues red bull had with the sensor, were the same other teams had. The FIA isn't just randomly picking out sensors. All these sensors work for everybody the same way, but red bull thought they could run a higher fuel rate then the others because it isn't accurate enough.

This here captures the entire problem and reason that Red Bull will not get this disqualification overturned. They ignored FIA guidance, ignored a technical directive, ignored the official procedures, all in order to gain an advantage over their competitors who were observing the above.

[Jef Patat]

I'm wondering if RB is playing smart ass again. I'm quite convinced the sensor is fine. I just can't believe RB would mount back a sensor they think is faulty. If I'd doubt the sensor was faulty and I'd the chance to replace it I'd just do that. Besides that I just can't image that many sensors are faulty. It can always happen, but chances are small.

With my limited knowledge and from what I've read I don't think it is that hard to fraud with the system. From what I've read the sensor is able to measure at 100 Hz and FIA is using a lowpass filter at 5 Hz. This is in my opinion is a very low frequency to if the primary goal is to prevent the peak usage. I don't know about the details of the measuring but there are two possibilities. Either the sampling is done by the same system or it is done by a different system. Knowing that the teams have access to the data they must be able to correlate that with their own system easilly. The trick is to have the flow happen at a higher frequency than the sampling in such a way that the FIA measurement is aliasing.

to draw a parallel with somthing everybody knows: the backspinning wheel of a filmed driving car. You know the FIA is filming at 24Hz. If you drive at the correct speed they'll think you stand still, or even drive backwards.

The better the correlation the easier to fraud. If the correlation is worse it just means you can fraud less, for a smaller period of time, but you can still do it. IMHO the only requirement is to be able to modulate the flow faster than 100Hz, which probably is not impossible.

Any thoughts pro contra this idea?