2025 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, April 18-20

[SiLo]

The penalty wasn’t even justified. Vanja analysed it with an overhead photo in the red bull team thread.

Stewarding and race direction was shocking

Rolling off the brake to be "ahead at the apex" and then just going off track to keep the position must be number 1 or 2 in the Max Verstappen overtaking handbook. I'm glad he got penalised, and him whining about it makes it even sweeter. The stewards should have cracked down on this behaviour long ago.

Piastri was right, at that speed Max was never making that corner.

What proof is there to show that Max ‘rolled off the brake’

Only the brake pressure telemetry will show if that was the case, but we don’t have access to it.

If he was still on the brake to make the corner he would have done. Instead he thinks he can just roll around the outside as if its his right and then keep the place. He's good enough and fast enough to not need to do such silly things.

[woocasz]

About this 5 seconds penaltys for overtaking off track. I think the best solution is to commit the driver to give back the place, because otherwise the faster driver overtake off the track, gain 10 second in free air and is in favour. I know it is an old discussion, but the answer is actually very obvious.

The penalty wasn’t even justified. Vanja analysed it with an overhead photo in the red bull team thread.

Stewarding and race direction was shocking

Rolling off the brake to be "ahead at the apex" and then just going off track to keep the position must be number 1 or 2 in the Max Verstappen overtaking handbook. I'm glad he got penalised, and him whining about it makes it even sweeter. The stewards should have cracked down on this behaviour long ago.

Piastri was right, at that speed Max was never making that corner.

+1
Max driving straight on to keep a place? What a shock
He should get 10s penalty and give back position to Oscar
It's always the same trick he pulls. Enters the corner with too much speed to try and get as alongside as he can but with no intention of making the corner.
Verstappen: "He had no intention of making the corner"
Oscar... makes corner
Ferrari needs to solve its problems with the height of the car, then Leclerc will throw Verstappen off the podium on a regular basis

[fourmula1]

If you think this and Mexico are the same you have no actual real world sense for wheel to wheel racing. None.
The analysis is cute and all but has no real world substance.
And I am not a fan of these rules AT ALL. This move is dumb. I'd penalize Oscar 5 years ago when we were dealing with this for forcing a driver off. Stop-go drive through penalty next lap. But a certain driver started dive bombing and forcing people off and the fans and media were so loud (and fia was inconsistent) that they had to come up with this crap rule and now keep drivers quiet so that they don't get pressure to fire people etc.
My rant.

[F1NAC]

Just saw highlights of the race today.

That penalty for Lawson was a joke. How was Alonso then allowed to take a place from Bortoleto when he cut the corner and on that way passed him?

[Seanspeed]

+1
Max driving straight on to keep a place? What a shock
He should get 10s penalty and give back position to Oscar
It's always the same trick he pulls. Enters the corner with too much speed to try and get as alongside as he can but with no intention of making the corner.
Verstappen: "He had no intention of making the corner"
Oscar... makes corner

You're right about Max, but you're ignoring that Piastri also had no intention of giving Max any room at all. His trajectory was entirely meant to push Max off-the-track no matter what, which is supposed to be illegal, but seems very rarely enforced, and certainly not for Piastri who got away with it several times last season to his advantage.

[woocasz]

+1
Max driving straight on to keep a place? What a shock
He should get 10s penalty and give back position to Oscar
It's always the same trick he pulls. Enters the corner with too much speed to try and get as alongside as he can but with no intention of making the corner.
Verstappen: "He had no intention of making the corner"
Oscar... makes corner

You're right about Max, but you're ignoring that Piastri also had no intention of giving Max any room at all. His trajectory was entirely meant to push Max off-the-track no matter what, which is supposed to be illegal, but seems very rarely enforced, and certainly not for Piastri who got away with it several times last season to his advantage.

You have to understand one thing, Max should not have been there, he lost that corner doing that manoeuvre when he swerved to the right to ‘gain’ speed entering the corner. Max would not have made that turn even if Oscar had not been there. It turns out that Max had a higher entry speed into the corner than in q3!!! let that sink in. people should stop being naive. Max is the dirtiest driver on the grid, along with Ocon. in previous years he had a huge pace advantage, so he didn't have to do this kind of manoeuvre, now that he doesn't have this advantage (last year vs Lando).... you can see for yourself.

[hollus]

Do I remember it wrong, or was the rule that whoever is ahead at the apex “owns” the corner implemented in response to Max operating repeatedly in the gray zones of the ruleset?

[chrisc90]

Do I remember it wrong, or was the rule that whoever is ahead at the apex “owns” the corner implemented in response to Max operating repeatedly in the gray zones of the ruleset?

I believe that was the case, unless the 2025 driver briefings have changed that from 2024.

One could even argue that Oscar gained the position at the start, then Max become the overtaking driver with his car fully alongside (even ahead) for the corner therefore should have been allowed room on track.

Guenther did a short podcast stating his views on the penalty.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNd2UKjwm/

(Apologies to those who don’t like a TikTok link)

Effectively says that using a mitigating circumstance for a penalty is a half-assed way to come to a decision. It’s either a penalty or it’s not. Which is completely fair.

What will happen now is it sets a precedent for the rest of the season where someone tries to do what Max did (rightfully or wrongly on each persons opinion).

[Cs98]

Do I remember it wrong, or was the rule that whoever is ahead at the apex “owns” the corner implemented in response to Max operating repeatedly in the gray zones of the ruleset?

I believe that was the case, unless the 2025 driver briefings have changed that from 2024.

One could even argue that Oscar gained the position at the start, then Max become the overtaking driver with his car fully alongside (even ahead) for the corner therefore should have been allowed room on track.

Guenther did a short podcast stating his views on the penalty.

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNd2UKjwm/

(Apologies to those who don’t like a TikTok link)

Effectively says that using a mitigating circumstance for a penalty is a half-assed way to come to a decision. It’s either a penalty or it’s not. Which is completely fair.

What will happen now is it sets a precedent for the rest of the season where someone tries to do what Max did (rightfully or wrongly on each persons opinion).

They will never follow this precedent, it would create too many issues. Last year Oscar would have gotten a penalty for that move, now we are debating whether the car ahead on the outside should be penalised for being pushed off the track. The stewards got in their feelings and succumb to the pressure because of who was involved. Gunther is 100% right about the 5s penalty, it's not because of first lap "mitigating circumstances", it's because they knew they couldn't justify the penalty under the rules so felt the need to "go easy" with 5 seconds. They have no issues handing out full penalties for first corner incidents when they know it's right, we saw that in AD last year.

[Ferry]

One could even argue that Oscar gained the position at the start, then Max become the overtaking driver with his car fully alongside (even ahead) for the corner therefore should have been allowed room on track.

Wasn't Max slightly ahead at the apex? Which makes Piastri the overtaking driver again. Until he is ahead, then it's Max once more. At what point do you change from the overtaker to the one being overtaken?

[Cs98]

One could even argue that Oscar gained the position at the start, then Max become the overtaking driver with his car fully alongside (even ahead) for the corner therefore should have been allowed room on track.

Wasn't Max slightly ahead at the apex? Which makes Piastri the overtaking driver again. Until he is ahead, then it's Max once more. At what point do you change from the overtaker to the one being overtaken?

Max started ahead, Oscar was ahead when they hit the braking zone, Max was ahead at the apex, Max was ahead from the apex. Who is overtaking and who is defending becomes an arbitrary question in such situations. For fairness sake both cars should be abiding by the same rules for leaving space, regardless of who you define as the "overtaking" car.

[venkyhere]

+1
Max driving straight on to keep a place? What a shock
He should get 10s penalty and give back position to Oscar
It's always the same trick he pulls. Enters the corner with too much speed to try and get as alongside as he can but with no intention of making the corner.
Verstappen: "He had no intention of making the corner"
Oscar... makes corner

You're right about Max, but you're ignoring that Piastri also had no intention of giving Max any room at all. His trajectory was entirely meant to push Max off-the-track no matter what, which is supposed to be illegal, but seems very rarely enforced, and certainly not for Piastri who got away with it several times last season to his advantage.

It turns out that Max had a higher entry speed into the corner than in q3!!! let that sink in. people should stop being naive.

Let other opinions in your post be left to themselves, but this data point (I know where this data comes from) that 'clarifies' Max's intention to never make the corner ; is the biggest stupidity that is being paraded as the 'crucial piece of info'. I am seeing this argument in all threads, all forums, all media articles.

Yes, he carried more speed than Q3 with a full tank of fuel. But what line was he driving ? Knowing that Piastri had a better start than him, Max flared out wide towards the right, so that he could 'straighten' his entry to T1 and carry more speed when he is near the apex of the corner. He hoped to be ahead, as he expected PIastri to brake much earlier as PIastri was hugging the inside line towards the entry of the corner.

The fact that Piastri was aware of this, and braked much later, understeered wildly (well within his rights) and barely kept his car inside the track limits is the crucial aspect of this tussle. THis resulted in no room being left for Max, and instead of braking and falling behind Piastri, he chose to take the escape route and deservedly earned his penalty.

But this 'faster than Q3' as an argument that justifies Max's intentions to never make the corner, is as naive an argument as it gets. He wanted to make the corner, just that he was unable to, because PIastri was clever enough to deny him the opportunity,

This naiive justification of 'more speed than Q3' stems from oversimplification due to lack of nuanced understanding of racing.

[bluechris]

In Palmer analysis is obvious that Max lift a bit the brakes to be ahead near the apex. That was what decided the penalty imo.

[chrisc90]

Where’s this evidence he was faster into turn 1 in the short sprint to turn 1 than he was in quali with a long straight and DRS?

It seems soooo easy to debunk what sounds a bit like a myth.

Just checked F1 tempo and cant see any lap 1 telemetry available. Anyone have it?

EDIT:

Found a better telemetry site that F1-Tempo which has much better graphics and other data also on there.

https://tracinginsights.com/

Heres the comparisons (you will just have to move the lines over and visualise them as the traces are a bit off.



And speeds of each lap...




Now the 'Faster than Q3" garbage has been thrown out the window. Who would even believe that narrative anyhow???

[hollus]

Is Max having his front wheel in front of Oscar's front wheel (in the onboards) the evidence for "Max being ahead at the apex"? That depends a lot on where those two are pointing to.
I admit that I was under the impression that Oscar was ahead at the apex. Now I am not so sure.
If you made a line perpendicular to the kerb(s) at the apex (45 degrees to both straights), I get the feeling that it would intercept Oscar's left front endplate first. By that metric Oscar was ahead at the apex.
So... how do we measure "ahead" and how we measure "at the apex"?
Just for messing up, I'd love to hear anyone define "the apex" in Shanghai.