I'm supporting not-Alonso

[vall]

Myurr please explain this then.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 617378.ece

Thats Dennis, McLaren head honcho, CLEARLY taking sides.
Now if you think Mclaren were dishing out equal equipment and/or treatment after Alonso's threat, then I think that is wishful thinking.

Pretty easy really. That was two months AFTER Alonso had blackmailed him and one month after he had received a $100m fine, at least in part due to Alonso's actions. You expect him to be all happy about Alonso at that point.

Should that mean you would justify McLaren screwing up Alonso in the races after Hungary? Reading your posts, it seems so?

We are really missing Islamatron here

[myurr]

Should that mean you would justify McLaren screwing up Alonso in the races after Hungary? Reading your posts, it seems so?

We are really missing Islamatron here

If they did screw up Alonso's races before or after Hungary then no I would not justify it. Am I surprised by Dennis wanting Lewis to win over a driver that had recently stabbed him in the back in the biggest way ever in the history of F1 - no, and nor would I criticise him for it.

At no point has anyone ever shown that McLaren DID screw up any of Alonso's races, indeed they were under FIA supervision to make sure that it didn't happen with no complaints raised at all. Your entire post is yet another irrelevant attempt at deflection away from the justified criticisms of Alonso.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I fear for this threads longevity.....

Why?

Myurr,

Being opaque? Fair enough, I will make myself more clear.
Why did Alonso suffer from a mysterious tyre pressure problem in Q3 in china in 2007?
The FIA delegate was present, but had no access to the tyres as they were in their warmers at the back of the garage.
Now Alonso knows a thing or 2 about tyres, and it was a race that could have decided the championship had Alonso won. So his opinion on the matter could not be more qualified.
Unless of course you think he is just saying it as an excuse? Which would be opaque

Firstly qualifying, Alonso was neck and neck with Hamilton through Q1 and Q2 along with the 2 Ferrari's. However come Q3 his car is suddenly 0.7 seconds slower than Hamiltons. The Ferrari's fueled longer so their times dropped off, but Hamilton and Alonso were covering each other.

Part 1 Part 2 Part 3
Hamilton 1:35.798 1:35.898 1:35.908
Alonso 1:35.809 1:35.845 1:36.576

Draw your own conclusions, but clearer I cannot be.

[andrew]

I fear for this threads longevity.....

Why?

Not particularly technical is it?

[myurr]

Draw your own conclusions, but clearer I cannot be.

I get where you're coming from, but there's still no real evidence either way. Teams have always made mistakes, and whilst it's been better since the standard tyres were introduced, there have always been bad batches of tyres. We used to see that fairly frequently during the tyre war where one driver would suddenly struggle on a given set of tyres only to pick their pace up again after the next stops, and if memory serves this did carry over into the next year.

Do you think that McLaren deliberately sabotaged Hamilton's race by letting his inters wear out? Or was it just an operational error coupled with a bit of bad luck?

Either way it is still irrelevant. I hope that McLaren didn't do anything deliberate and I will criticise them if you can show they did, but we're still talking about an event two months after the relationship effectively came to an end. It's not a trigger point or an example of pre-Hungary bias towards Hamilton that 'rightly' had Alonso up in arms. It also does nothing to excuse Alonso blackmailing his team.

[Super racing]

FA had a bad Q3, So what? I remember LH having a wheel break and him going into the barriers earlier that season in Q3(Nurbergring)... sh*t happens, it could have been a bad set of tires, wheel out of balance whatever, there no evidence that he was sabotaged, Hamilton didnt score any points in 2007 China anyway... what destroyed Alonso's Season/title chance was his crash in Japan, poor showing in Canada and his Hungary penalty(those were his worst points races, AND ALL HIS FAULT. In China 2007 he came in 2nd to Hamilton's DNF, so even if they tried to sabotage his Q3(of which there is no evidence to support, quite the contrary) they were unsuccesful.

[vall]

I of course cannot find the link now, but I remember complains that Alosno wanted a different strategies at numerous races (to close the gap to LH at the time he was ahead), but this was denied by McL and put him on a different strategy

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Draw your own conclusions, but clearer I cannot be.

I get where you're coming from, but there's still no real evidence either way. Teams have always made mistakes, and whilst it's been better since the standard tyres were introduced, there have always been bad batches of tyres. We used to see that fairly frequently during the tyre war where one driver would suddenly struggle on a given set of tyres only to pick their pace up again after the next stops, and if memory serves this did carry over into the next year.

Do you think that McLaren deliberately sabotaged Hamilton's race by letting his inters wear out? Or was it just an operational error coupled with a bit of bad luck?

Either way it is still irrelevant. I hope that McLaren didn't do anything deliberate and I will criticise them if you can show they did, but we're still talking about an event two months after the relationship effectively came to an end. It's not a trigger point or an example of pre-Hungary bias towards Hamilton that 'rightly' had Alonso up in arms. It also does nothing to excuse Alonso blackmailing his team.

My views on this could be deemed contoversial by some, but I honestly feel that McLaren were forced into an FIA game. Maybe even as late as Brazil 07.
Spying on their greatest rivals whom they are also racing in one of the greatest seasons we have witnessed. Do you think F1 would be a credible sport if a McLaren driver would have won?
Hence, why Ferrari rolled over(chased a couple of engineers afterwards but they paid pitiful fines) and Mclaren kept schtum.
Mclaren could keep racing and Ferrari would win the WDC and WCC.

Im really not one for conspiracies, but Hamiltons "transmission problem" in Brazil was so blatant many missed it!
Alonso and Hamilton ended even on points, with Raikkonen first.
As Rorsach from the Watchmen film would say...How convenient.

My 2cents on the 07 season

[Pierce89]

There was one guy monitoring right? Now if the car has 50 000 parts that make it go fast, do you think this guy is going to be privy to all of them?
Again Myurr, wishful thinking.

I'm not saying they didnt get equal equipment, but China that year there was a definite problem with tyres where the pressures where off. That was the penultimate race of the season and also the race where Dennis dropped his guard with that idiotic statement.
"Brain fade" to coin one of his phrases......

Dont confuse my defense of Alonso, as me being a fan. I think he is a great driver for what he does out on track. Same as Hamilton, same as Schumi.
What really iritates me is the absolute crass nature of this thread, and the insolent English media who brainwash people into disliking a man they have never met.
I see Alonso as a guy that wants to win by all possible means. I see Schumacher as that guy, and I sure as hell see Hamilton as that guy too.
Alonso is intelligent enough to know he will always be persona non grata in Britain.
Do you think he gives a f##k?
He cares for racing, he did wrong, he did his time in a shitty Renault for 2 years. Now he can make amends, and people still harp on about his "character".
As I said before, I wouldnt want to have a beer with the guy(okay 2 beers ) But do you really think this is reason to go into vitriolic hyperbole about a guy who knows as good as anyone how to drive an F1 car fast?

Not in my book. Lay off the guy I say, and watch as he goes Lewis hunting!

Wow you basically covered everything I wanted to say. All I can add is that like you said Alonso, Shumi ,and Hamilton are bascally the same person in different races. So, I don't see how you can like one and hate the other two. Three greater drivers have naver battled in my book.(A dead heat with: Shumi,Senna and Prost)

[jwielage]

Wow you basically covered everything I wanted to say. All I can add is that like you said Alonso, Shumi ,and Hamilton are bascally the same person in different races. So, I don't see how you can like one and hate the other two. Three greater drivers have naver battled in my book.(A dead heat with: Shumi,Senna and Prost)

You hit the nail on the head. Criticizing any of these Champions because they possess qualities that appear selfish or arrogant is much like "giving out speeding tickets at the Indy 500"*. YOU JUST DON'T DO IT! None of these guys would be Champions if they weren't supremely self assured while possessing a tenacity that allowed them to do WHATEVER it takes to win.

The apparent differences between these men are superficial at best. In motor racing, like many other professions, you have to be willing to get your hands dirty to get to the top. It just so happens that their individual qualities manifest themselves differently in the public sphere, so they don't always give the same impression to the spectator.

I am an Alonso fan, but you better believe I have a deep admiration and respect for Hamiliton and Schumacher because at one point or another they were the best. And believe it or not, when you're the best the ends always justify the means.


* Quoting one of my favorite movies Apocalypse Now

[nipo]

Do you honestly believe that Hamilton would have won the championship without Alonso in 2007?

I'm sorry but this is the most laughable quote in this thread. =D> =D> =D>

He lost it exactly because of Alonso. And vice versa, to be fair.

[nipo]

What really iritates me is the absolute crass nature of this thread, and the insolent English media who brainwash people into disliking a man they have never met.

Again. Invalid point as pointed out by others and myself.

He cares for racing, he did wrong, he did his time in a shitty Renault for 2 years. Now he can make amends, and people still harp on about his "character".

You are right, he did wrong. As for making amends, I'll agree with you when I see evidence that he has improved. Right now I've not seen that, rather the opposite, even.

[FW17]

Do you honestly believe that Hamilton would have won the championship without Alonso in 2007?

I'm sorry but this is the most laughable quote in this thread. =D> =D> =D>

He lost it exactly because of Alonso. And vice versa, to be fair.

And you live in a fantasy world were you believe that Hamilton could have developed that car to a championship winner by himself in his rookie year. Give some credit were it is due.

[nipo]

Do you honestly believe that Hamilton would have won the championship without Alonso in 2007?

I'm sorry but this is the most laughable quote in this thread. =D> =D> =D>

He lost it exactly because of Alonso. And vice versa, to be fair.

And you live in a fantasy world were you believe that Hamilton could have developed that car to a championship winner by himself in his rookie year. Give some credit were it is due.

And you live in a fantasy world where a World Champ can suddenly jump into a car and give the team's numerous engineers all the answers they were looking for over the past few years.

WilliamsF1, your attempts to point out the weaknesses of other people's arguments only reveals those of your own. I'll forgive you for bad memory, but let me kindly remind you:
#1: A successful car is not born out of 2 months of testing. As recent as 2009, Brawn has shown us that, if you want to have success, you have to plan, invest, and work hard VERY EARLY to claw back lost ground. Now you tell me Alonso can jump into a car as late as December and turn it into a championship winner?
#2: If he is such a great "development driver" as you depicted, why weren't he able to do that when he went back to Renault? That team were WCC only the year before it's not like they were a bottom team so he should have been able to do his magic, right?

It is frustrating to try to understand your "fantasy world" where Alonso is God Almighty and everyone against Alonso is poisoned by the British press.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What really iritates me is the absolute crass nature of this thread, and the insolent English media who brainwash people into disliking a man they have never met.

Again. Invalid point as pointed out by others and myself.

Nipo, you may feel that way, but to call it an "invlaid point" is stretching it.

"I'm supporting not-Alonso" is pretty juvenile and crass in itself. I post on here to see if I can shed light on some peoples ignorance. Some people will argue moot points that Alonso's character is flawed.

Well I would say if it was that flawed he wouldnt be in F1.
Nor would Ferrari have picked him up to lead their charge. You see it opens up a whole can of worms when you start criticising Alonso. Because the "character flaw" isnt endemic to Alonso, it has many proponents within F1.

But Alonso makes a good Dick Dastardly, because a)he isnt english b) he couldnt care what the media thinks c)Had a well publicised spat with Mclaren and Hamilton.

Naturally there are other drivers who have lied, crashed into others etc, but they are somehow viewed as more noble.
Say what you will of Alonso mate, but he isnt unique and nor is he alone.