2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

[mkay]

Really curious to see whether of not mercedes can afford to run france-like rear wing in silverstone as well. This track really murders you on straights if you don't have efficient aero, kinda like Suzuka (maybe just a bit less). It'd really make them sitting ducks on any straight and possibly even unable to defend positions if necessary.

If they couldn't in France, they won't fare any better at Silverstone, unless those upgrades really are something else (which they most likely aren't).

[Dee]

Really curious to see whether of not mercedes can afford to run france-like rear wing in silverstone as well. This track really murders you on straights if you don't have efficient aero, kinda like Suzuka (maybe just a bit less). It'd really make them sitting ducks on any straight and possibly even unable to defend positions if necessary.

If they couldn't in France, they won't fare any better at Silverstone, unless those upgrades really are something else (which they most likely aren't).

I really don't understand the skepticism. When have Mercedes ever mentioned upgrades and exciting in the same sentence and not delivered?

The engine is there, the aero needs to match and this is an aero upgrade

[Manoah2u]

Really curious to see whether of not mercedes can afford to run france-like rear wing in silverstone as well. This track really murders you on straights if you don't have efficient aero, kinda like Suzuka (maybe just a bit less). It'd really make them sitting ducks on any straight and possibly even unable to defend positions if necessary.

If they couldn't in France, they won't fare any better at Silverstone, unless those upgrades really are something else (which they most likely aren't).

I really don't understand the skepticism. When have Mercedes ever mentioned upgrades and exciting in the same sentence and not delivered?

The engine is there, the aero needs to match and this is an aero upgrade

He's got some valid points though. It is a point of concern, and Mercedes were on the back foot in France.

They also claimed they have stopped development for the 2021 car. They could offcourse decide to shift some resources and continue development after being unexpectedly pushed into that corner. They can also have been completely full of it and say they're not developing anymore yet are. Or they can speak the truth and really don't develop further.

Bringing a huge chunk of updates doesn't neccesarily mean they haven't stopped development. The updates could have been pre-simulated or pre-designed parts that were planned to be used at certain tracks anyway, perhaps even planned anyway if the first few GP's showed certain results - or perhaps parts they have already prepared in the case of RBR (or any team) being more competitive than expected.
This would mean that Mercedes have simply designed their 2021 car to a certain spec, but whilst designing that car, also kept in mind the possibility of being under bigger competetive pressure and that they have a solution for that too - which will be introduced now @ silverstone, for example.

Obviously Mercedes know what they are doing and i agree that it stands to reason that these updates will deal with a certain weaker points on the car.

However, one musn't also forget that RedBull won't sit still either and it's likely they will also bring improvements.
Which would mean that in the end we could see another France-like situation.
Thing is - imagine Merc would NOT bring these updates: that could end up disastreous.

Personally i think the Silverstone weekend will be a bit more important to focus on on other areas. The sprint Qualification i would be inclined to believe will be different enough to the normal race weekend that there is a bigger chance that RBR won't end up getting pole position. Since the sprint race is shorter than the normal race and no tire changes are mandated, either team can go with a completely different approach, especially since the friday 'qually' is also different to normal format due to the mandated soft tyre usage.

The shorter 'preperation' time for the 'general' qualification AND the mandated tyre, means the friday qualification session already will be having a variety of different elements compared to the other 'classic' race weekends - meaning there will be different tactics to be had.

For example, it could be decided that Mercedes could opt for focusing on getting the best out on friday so they start the sprint on pole, and build a gap so that they can start sunday race on pole too.
On the other hand, they could also decide to focus less on friday and more on saturday, making more use of DRS and starting P2 instead of P1 on saturday, to then use DRS on a tactical moment and beat the RB on saturday.

I do believe however that Mercedes will come out stronger in Silverstone than in the past few races. If Hamilton also manages to get pole position, win the qualification sprint race, win the Silverstone GP, and manage a fastest lap point, then that will boost the team's morale quite a lot, and at the same time give a little slap back to RBR.
Especially if for some bad luck, Max gets a DNF. If Max has a moment in the sprint race and crashes, OR has a technical issue - remember that Baku almost had Perez retire - then he will start at the back in the sunday race, and it's going to be really hard to then manage to make the podium.

[El Scorchio]

If they couldn't in France, they won't fare any better at Silverstone, unless those upgrades really are something else (which they most likely aren't).

I really don't understand the skepticism. When have Mercedes ever mentioned upgrades and exciting in the same sentence and not delivered?

The engine is there, the aero needs to match and this is an aero upgrade

He's got some valid points though. It is a point of concern, and Mercedes were on the back foot in France.

They also claimed they have stopped development for the 2021 car. They could offcourse decide to shift some resources and continue development after being unexpectedly pushed into that corner. They can also have been completely full of it and say they're not developing anymore yet are. Or they can speak the truth and really don't develop further.

Bringing a huge chunk of updates doesn't neccesarily mean they haven't stopped development. The updates could have been pre-simulated or pre-designed parts that were planned to be used at certain tracks anyway, perhaps even planned anyway if the first few GP's showed certain results - or perhaps parts they have already prepared in the case of RBR (or any team) being more competitive than expected.
This would mean that Mercedes have simply designed their 2021 car to a certain spec, but whilst designing that car, also kept in mind the possibility of being under bigger competetive pressure and that they have a solution for that too - which will be introduced now @ silverstone, for example.

Obviously Mercedes know what they are doing and i agree that it stands to reason that these updates will deal with a certain weaker points on the car.

However, one musn't also forget that RedBull won't sit still either and it's likely they will also bring improvements.
Which would mean that in the end we could see another France-like situation.
Thing is - imagine Merc would NOT bring these updates: that could end up disastreous.

Personally i think the Silverstone weekend will be a bit more important to focus on on other areas. The sprint Qualification i would be inclined to believe will be different enough to the normal race weekend that there is a bigger chance that RBR won't end up getting pole position. Since the sprint race is shorter than the normal race and no tire changes are mandated, either team can go with a completely different approach, especially since the friday 'qually' is also different to normal format due to the mandated soft tyre usage.

The shorter 'preperation' time for the 'general' qualification AND the mandated tyre, means the friday qualification session already will be having a variety of different elements compared to the other 'classic' race weekends - meaning there will be different tactics to be had.

For example, it could be decided that Mercedes could opt for focusing on getting the best out on friday so they start the sprint on pole, and build a gap so that they can start sunday race on pole too.
On the other hand, they could also decide to focus less on friday and more on saturday, making more use of DRS and starting P2 instead of P1 on saturday, to then use DRS on a tactical moment and beat the RB on saturday.

I do believe however that Mercedes will come out stronger in Silverstone than in the past few races. If Hamilton also manages to get pole position, win the qualification sprint race, win the Silverstone GP, and manage a fastest lap point, then that will boost the team's morale quite a lot, and at the same time give a little slap back to RBR.
Especially if for some bad luck, Max gets a DNF. If Max has a moment in the sprint race and crashes, OR has a technical issue - remember that Baku almost had Perez retire - then he will start at the back in the sunday race, and it's going to be really hard to then manage to make the podium.

I wonder if just in their minds the situation changed somewhat between Spain and Austria with regard to 2021 upgrades. From the races up to Spain it was fairly competitive on Sundays and Mercedes were in the fight so maybe thought they could avoid having to bring upgrades and therefore that was the message. But then in the next few races it became totally clear that if they didn't do anything they were going to get soundly beaten week in week out as Red Bull upgraded their car. This is probably a sort of 'emergency plan B' which they'd hoped to leave on the shelf if they were competitive enough and could help it, but now it's become clear that they really need this to not only try and be competitive with Red Bull, but even to make sure they actually finish at minimum second in the WCC. McLaren are starting to breathe down their necks. They'll be pretty alarmed by the qualifying performance particularly in the past few races.

[dans79]

I wonder if just in their minds the situation changed somewhat between Spain and Austria with regard to 2021 upgrades. From the races up to Spain it was fairly competitive on Sundays and Mercedes were in the fight so maybe thought they could avoid having to bring upgrades and therefore that was the message. But then in the next few races it became totally clear that if they didn't do anything they were going to get soundly beaten week in week out as Red Bull upgraded their car. This is probably a sort of 'emergency plan B' which they'd hoped to leave on the shelf if they were competitive enough and could help it, but now it's become clear that they really need this to not only try and be competitive with Red Bull, but even to make sure they actually finish at minimum second in the WCC. McLaren are starting to breathe down their necks. They'll be pretty alarmed by the qualifying performance particularly in the past few races.

Honestly, I think the real issue is the tire pressure increases (post baku). the nature of the past few tracks.

Monaco was always going to favor redbull, just as it has in the past (even when merc was dominating).

In Baku, Lewis was real close to the Redbulls, but didn't have the delta to pass. If it hadn't been for the brake magic issue he would have won the race.

France was a team strategy screw up.

Austria was always going to favor Redbull with the cars being as close as they are, as it's not a Merc track, and the tire pressures where high.


If the tire pressures come back down, I think Merc will magically be back in it just like before.

[mkay]

I wonder if just in their minds the situation changed somewhat between Spain and Austria with regard to 2021 upgrades. From the races up to Spain it was fairly competitive on Sundays and Mercedes were in the fight so maybe thought they could avoid having to bring upgrades and therefore that was the message. But then in the next few races it became totally clear that if they didn't do anything they were going to get soundly beaten week in week out as Red Bull upgraded their car. This is probably a sort of 'emergency plan B' which they'd hoped to leave on the shelf if they were competitive enough and could help it, but now it's become clear that they really need this to not only try and be competitive with Red Bull, but even to make sure they actually finish at minimum second in the WCC. McLaren are starting to breathe down their necks. They'll be pretty alarmed by the qualifying performance particularly in the past few races.

Honestly, I think the real issue is the tire pressure increases (post baku). the nature of the past few tracks.

Monaco was always going to favor redbull, just as it has in the past (even when merc was dominating).

In Baku, Lewis was real close to the Redbulls, but didn't have the delta to pass. If it hadn't been for the brake magic issue he would have won the race.

France was a team strategy screw up.

Austria was always going to favor Redbull with the cars being as close as they are, as it's not a Merc track, and the tire pressures where high.


If the tire pressures come back down, I think Merc will magically be back in it just like before.

Re: Baku, I think you are ignoring the fact that Max was easily building a gap whilst coasting up front. Sure, Hamilton was close to Perez (partially aided by the massive tow down the longest straight of the F1 calendar) but Verstappen was in a world of his own after the pitstop. Hamilton/Merc just couldn't cope with RB's pace down Sector 1 and particularly Sector 2, and Max was able to build a comfortable gap once he escaped Hamilton's tow. It wasn't quite Austria/Monaco level of 'dominance' but RB was definitely the faster package on Sunday.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Re: France, yes it was a strategy screw-up at the core of it all, it was a driver error by Max which gave Merc a chance to win it; Hamilton was adamant that he wouldn't have been able to pass Max in a 'normal' race.

[El Scorchio]

I wonder if just in their minds the situation changed somewhat between Spain and Austria with regard to 2021 upgrades. From the races up to Spain it was fairly competitive on Sundays and Mercedes were in the fight so maybe thought they could avoid having to bring upgrades and therefore that was the message. But then in the next few races it became totally clear that if they didn't do anything they were going to get soundly beaten week in week out as Red Bull upgraded their car. This is probably a sort of 'emergency plan B' which they'd hoped to leave on the shelf if they were competitive enough and could help it, but now it's become clear that they really need this to not only try and be competitive with Red Bull, but even to make sure they actually finish at minimum second in the WCC. McLaren are starting to breathe down their necks. They'll be pretty alarmed by the qualifying performance particularly in the past few races.

Honestly, I think the real issue is the tire pressure increases (post baku). the nature of the past few tracks.

Monaco was always going to favor redbull, just as it has in the past (even when merc was dominating).

In Baku, Lewis was real close to the Redbulls, but didn't have the delta to pass. If it hadn't been for the brake magic issue he would have won the race.

France was a team strategy screw up.

Austria was always going to favor Redbull with the cars being as close as they are, as it's not a Merc track, and the tire pressures where high.


If the tire pressures come back down, I think Merc will magically be back in it just like before.

Re: Baku, I think you are ignoring the fact that Max was easily building a gap whilst coasting up front. Sure, Hamilton was close to Perez (partially aided by the massive tow down the longest straight of the F1 calendar) but Verstappen was in a world of his own after the pitstop. Hamilton/Merc just couldn't cope with RB's pace down Sector 1 and particularly Sector 2, and Max was able to build a comfortable gap once he escaped Hamilton's tow. It wasn't quite Austria/Monaco level of 'dominance' but RB was definitely the faster package on Sunday.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Re: France, yes it was a strategy screw-up at the core of it all, it was a driver error by Max which gave Merc a chance to win it; Hamilton was adamant that he wouldn't have been able to pass Max in a 'normal' race.

Agree with that. The win for Hamilton in Baku was only possible because of a crash and extreme caution with the two RB cars. France was only due to Verstappen's error. Both would, I suspect have been fairly easy victories for Verstappen otherwise.

[Marty_Y]

I wonder if just in their minds the situation changed somewhat between Spain and Austria with regard to 2021 upgrades. From the races up to Spain it was fairly competitive on Sundays and Mercedes were in the fight so maybe thought they could avoid having to bring upgrades and therefore that was the message. But then in the next few races it became totally clear that if they didn't do anything they were going to get soundly beaten week in week out as Red Bull upgraded their car. This is probably a sort of 'emergency plan B' which they'd hoped to leave on the shelf if they were competitive enough and could help it, but now it's become clear that they really need this to not only try and be competitive with Red Bull, but even to make sure they actually finish at minimum second in the WCC. McLaren are starting to breathe down their necks. They'll be pretty alarmed by the qualifying performance particularly in the past few races.

Honestly, I think the real issue is the tire pressure increases (post baku). the nature of the past few tracks.

Monaco was always going to favor redbull, just as it has in the past (even when merc was dominating).

In Baku, Lewis was real close to the Redbulls, but didn't have the delta to pass. If it hadn't been for the brake magic issue he would have won the race.

France was a team strategy screw up.

Austria was always going to favor Redbull with the cars being as close as they are, as it's not a Merc track, and the tire pressures where high.


If the tire pressures come back down, I think Merc will magically be back in it just like before.

Re: Baku, I think you are ignoring the fact that Max was easily building a gap whilst coasting up front. Sure, Hamilton was close to Perez (partially aided by the massive tow down the longest straight of the F1 calendar) but Verstappen was in a world of his own after the pitstop. Hamilton/Merc just couldn't cope with RB's pace down Sector 1 and particularly Sector 2, and Max was able to build a comfortable gap once he escaped Hamilton's tow. It wasn't quite Austria/Monaco level of 'dominance' but RB was definitely the faster package on Sunday.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Re: France, yes it was a strategy screw-up at the core of it all, it was a driver error by Max which gave Merc a chance to win it; Hamilton was adamant that he wouldn't have been able to pass Max in a 'normal' race.

Re Baku, Lewis qualified ahead of both Red Bull's, he only lost the lead because of a bad pit stop.

It's true he didn't have the pace to overtake but that was the same for red bull when Lewis was leading at the beginning.

[mkay]

Honestly, I think the real issue is the tire pressure increases (post baku). the nature of the past few tracks.

Monaco was always going to favor redbull, just as it has in the past (even when merc was dominating).

In Baku, Lewis was real close to the Redbulls, but didn't have the delta to pass. If it hadn't been for the brake magic issue he would have won the race.

France was a team strategy screw up.

Austria was always going to favor Redbull with the cars being as close as they are, as it's not a Merc track, and the tire pressures where high.


If the tire pressures come back down, I think Merc will magically be back in it just like before.

Re: Baku, I think you are ignoring the fact that Max was easily building a gap whilst coasting up front. Sure, Hamilton was close to Perez (partially aided by the massive tow down the longest straight of the F1 calendar) but Verstappen was in a world of his own after the pitstop. Hamilton/Merc just couldn't cope with RB's pace down Sector 1 and particularly Sector 2, and Max was able to build a comfortable gap once he escaped Hamilton's tow. It wasn't quite Austria/Monaco level of 'dominance' but RB was definitely the faster package on Sunday.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Re: France, yes it was a strategy screw-up at the core of it all, it was a driver error by Max which gave Merc a chance to win it; Hamilton was adamant that he wouldn't have been able to pass Max in a 'normal' race.

Re Baku, Lewis qualified ahead of both Red Bull's, he only lost the lead because of a bad pit stop.

It's true he didn't have the pace to overtake but that was the same for red bull when Lewis was leading at the beginning.

Fair point I suppose. Hamilton did qualify ahead of the Bulls - how much is down to setup though? Merc clearly went aggressive on setup which helped over 1 lap but probably compromised them over a stint length as he didn't seem to have sufficient rear grip particularly in Sector 2.

We don't know for sure if Verstappen would have been able to pass HAM, but his pace through the castle section was such that I think he would have definitely gone for it had he remained behind HAM after the pitstop. And HAM's top speed advantage wouldn't have been enough to fend off a Max DRS attack down the main straight.

IMO, Max just paced himself in the first stint (whilst keeping close to HAM) to ensure the softs would last; also, I imagine RB was betting on Hamilton having issues warming up tyres out of the pits.

All this to say, make no mistake - yes HAM lost a likely win due to the events that unfolded at the end of the race, but it would have just delayed the inevitable in the Austrian double-header.

[rickybobbyf1]

Wow, so RB also brought an updated floor. They really want it this year. Hopefully the updated aero on the W12 is significant enough…

[Marty_Y]

It's not looking very good to be honest.

[F1Krof]

7 tenths and behind Norris.

I think that's a wrap. It's over.

[rickybobbyf1]

7 tenths and behind Norris.

I think that's a wrap. It's over.

I agree.

Man, watching that was painful. Let’s hope 2022 regulations stay the same during the whole development process and not change multiple times like 2021 regs did.

[F1Krof]

Overall kudos to them. 7 years straight, they dodged every bullet.

This year's changes are just a perfect storm.

They change the aero to "keep the tyres from blowing".
Not enough, so they change the tyres.
Still not enough, they change the tyres mid-season with ridiculous high pressures.

[Baulz]

7 tenths and behind Norris.

I think that's a wrap. It's over.

They are still ahead of the other Red Bull.

I think with a new weekend format teams are going about their programs in different ways, wait until at least after qualifying to panic.