Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[Raptor22]

Raptor is describing MR damper(in the 3rd paragraph), which actually uses no valve(the fluid is the valving mechanism). But I don't think you are actually allowed to use that anywhere racing since it is still "controlled". In road car its considered to be adaptive or reactive. But still controlled and in all cases is coupled to the actual dynamic of the vehicle, not just the single wheel motion. The same technology thats first used on Cadillac, then adopted by Ferrari(599, 458..etc), Audi and a bunch of others. Road car technology is held by Delphi while the actual patent holder is Lord(they also make these for trucks, seat damper and building dampers).

Koni FSD is not actually controlled in any way, they have a tuned volume in the damping circuit that gets used to actuate a secondary valving that opens and close based on if that volume is used or not. The frequency is dependent on how big that volume is(which determines a "fill-time"). There are no input or control. But obviously it needs to be tuned.

Curnett suspension in the US also hold patents for this type of damper.
Curneet uses an air spring on top of the piston to keep some of the valves closed.

There is also another type that uses a helical spring over the main compression valve to keep some the valving shut under normal use. if the car hits something hard like a kurb the pressure spike activates the spring which then opens the remaining valving to allow more oil flow.

I'm not sure if the MR types are banned because they are self contained and cannot be altered in use unless connected to an ECU, something thats simple to police. as long as each damper has its own ECU it is legal.

[Raptor22]

sorry all i wanted to illustrate was that the Koni dampers in the Mc are nothing special. its a simple damper that's been used in off road vehicles in the US, rally cars, and previous F1 cars. funny that the technology actually found mountan biking as an avenue that lapped it up and developed the technology!

[RacingManiac]

All dampers(aside from MR that I know of) uses some kind of spring-loaded valving to control the damping. Whether that spring comes from a deflected disc or a coil spring or something depends on make and tuning(and a lot of the time packaging.). The frequency dependent type like FSD works with some additional valving to give it additional control.

The problem with MR as a "passive" shock is that without power input, its no different from a regular damper(worse actually, since its just a simple orifice piston, without valving), it damps, but there are no benefits and it'll run quite soft. The fluid changes viscosity around the piston which contains the electric coil that generate a magnetic flux which gives it that adjustable characteristic by varying the input amperage(more current, larger flux field, more fluid around the piston becomes "aligned", orifice size reduced, stiffer damping). If you use a permanent magnet with a fixed flux field, then its no different than putting a piston with a small hole in regular oil.

[scarbs]

Mclaren uses Koni Intelligent dampers.

"This hydraulic system can be tuned for aerodynamic stability but will adopt adn optimum setting for handling and feel of the car in harsh conditions, such as when the car is travelling over kerbs"

""Koni's FSD is intelligent damping" said Johnathon Neale "FSD (Frequency Selective Damping) thinks for us - so it gives the drivers greater confidence and means they can drive through corners with maxiumum commitment"" - Race Tech magazine

Food for thought and discussion.

Curiously considering the much announced partnership with Koni and its FSD technology. McLaren in fact use multimatic dampers on the race car!

Are you sure about this? You mean they're using Dynamic Suspension dampers, but lying about using Koni for sponsorship sake? That seems a little bit far fetched, but this is F1.

I'm 100% sure on this one, I've seen them on the car, I've seen 'set up' sheets with them specified and had people in the industry tell me.

[Fil]

I think they spend to much time and resources on the rear wing slot and not enough on finding the right compromise between spring rate and ride height control.

Maybe i'm being naive, but surely they would have completely separate departments working on suspension & rear wing aerodynamics..

its not like 1 department would sit idly whilst the other does their work.

Obviously other teams just did a better job.

[marcush.]

I think they spend to much time and resources on the rear wing slot and not enough on finding the right compromise between spring rate and ride height control.

Maybe i'm being naive, but surely they would have completely separate departments working on suspension & rear wing aerodynamics..

its not like 1 department would sit idly whilst the other does their work.

Obviously other teams just did a better job.

+1

I was always amazed last yearalot of teams blamed their development of kers as a main reason for their bad performance at the beginning of the year..wich also seems odd as the solution at least for mclaren was entirely possible with kers ..so it was not a problem of recources but wrong priorities.

[autogyro]

McLaren, wrong priorities and Kers. now there is a big bag of worms.
Built any road performance cars and estimated sales figures lately?
Why is it difficult to believe that Macca have not solved the race long ride height problem and have their springs to hard like most of the others?

[segedunum]

I think they spend to much time and resources on the rear wing slot and not enough on finding the right compromise between spring rate and ride height control.

Maybe i'm being naive, but surely they would have completely separate departments working on suspension & rear wing aerodynamics..

It's where your focus is as a team, as a whole. Everything is interconnected, nothing is completely parallel on your critical path diagram and nothing sits in isolation. If your priority is to get a fancy new aerodynamic system to work then other things are naturally going to suffer. They certainly spent rather a lot of time measuring the thing in testing when it has really brought them very little versus the other problems they have.

I hate to say I told you so.....but I did. Lewis Hamilton's recent comments about just how far behind they are are pretty damning. That's why you've even got Ron Dennis commenting now, because if they really are going to get slaughtered over this season (and they will if the figures are really accurate) then McLaren Automotive isn't going to look that good...............

Obviously other teams just did a better job.

It's a simplistic thing to say, but the obvious question is 'why'? We're then back to where we started.

[Giblet]

I can't see being third best in f1 bad for mclaren automotive. You don't have to win in f1 to sell cars, you just have to be there. Ferrari should have tanked in 2005 if that's true and lotus will stop selling cars full stop with their pace.

It is also a touch simple to think while mclaren were getting readings on their wing they were ignoring all other data, which obviously they were not. They had sensors pointing on tires, at the air intake, and all the telemetry as well.

Rb are far ahead for sure in pace, but it's still too early to say mclaren can't catch them. I have my doubts though as well, but other than last year, and even that was mostly due to the addition of the ddd, in red bulls unproven history to properly develop a car. They have the cash and the personnel but an unproven development record.

[bonjon1979]

I think they spend to much time and resources on the rear wing slot and not enough on finding the right compromise between spring rate and ride height control.

Maybe i'm being naive, but surely they would have completely separate departments working on suspension & rear wing aerodynamics..

It's where your focus is as a team, as a whole. Everything is interconnected, nothing is completely parallel on your critical path diagram and nothing sits in isolation. If your priority is to get a fancy new aerodynamic system to work then other things are naturally going to suffer. They certainly spent rather a lot of time measuring the thing in testing when it has really brought them very little versus the other problems they have.

I hate to say I told you so.....but I did. Lewis Hamilton's recent comments about just how far behind they are are pretty damning. That's why you've even got Ron Dennis commenting now, because if they really are going to get slaughtered over this season (and they will if the figures are really accurate) then McLaren Automotive isn't going to look that good...............

Obviously other teams just did a better job.

It's a simplistic thing to say, but the obvious question is 'why'? We're then back to where we started.

Redbull were starting from a better position ie they had a much better car at the end of last year to build on(if you take away the KERS). Having that baseline meant that they could develop rather than start with a fresh piece of paper like Mclaren did. Ferrari focused their development on this years car and that is paying dividends.

However, I don't think that Mclaren are doing that badly at all. Second in the constructors, ahead of Redbull and Lewis is third in the championship. If the MP4-25 develops in the same way as it did last year then they'll be right up there. I still think that the true race pace of the cars is yet to be determined. From all the reports the Mac wasn't as hard on it's tyres as they thought it was going to be. Button was far too conservative for one and I think with lower temperatures we might see them pushing the car a little bit more extracting quicker times from the car. There is no denying that the RB looks a lot more planted through the corners than the mac but then again it is desperately slow on the straights. Also, it's no good being quick if you're not reliable. Ferrari has already had engine issues as did vettel. It's a long season and I think it's far too early to be writing teams off. Red bull are clearly the fastest but I expect the order to change throughout the year. Last year Brawn really made hay when the sun was shining - so far Red Bull have failed to capitalise on their advantage which could prove costly.

[segedunum]

I can't see being third best in f1 bad for mclaren automotive. You don't have to win in f1 to sell cars, you just have to be there. Ferrari should have tanked in 2005 if that's true and lotus will stop selling cars full stop with their pace.

True. Ferrari sold cars for years when they were running around at the back. Big Ron just seems to be rather image conscious though..........

[bar555]

According to Team Principal Martin Whitmarsh, the team will introduce a number of small improvements to the car ahead of the Australian Grand Prix

source :
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-new ... en-mp4-25/

[wesley123]

yes that is because the diffuser has to be adjusted...

[bar555]

I do not think that Martin Whitmarsh was referring to the diffuser's revision actually , but to other additional minor improvements as there is little time till Albert Park .

[segedunum]

I'll be extremely suprised if any modifications are just for the diffuser. The car needs to be pushed along at a significant rate for the rest of the season now.