Haas - American team in F1

[Cam]

Does not matter what tyres they use or which track they use but absolutely vital that they test. It is best for a team with no experience to validate everything they do on track.

I'm a little surprised a statement like this would be made. You only have to look to last year to see what a massive effect tyres had on performance of the cars. A simple mid-season tweak promoted some cars while others went backwards. Not having built the car to right tyre was hugely detrimental for some. The track and conditions also play a huge role in testing - hence teams complaining about Jerez - the track surface and temperature were simply not indicative of the season.

[beelsebob]

Does not matter what tyres they use or which track they use but absolutely vital that they test. It is best for a team with no experience to validate everything they do on track.

I'm a little surprised a statement like this would be made. You only have to look to last year to see what a massive effect tyres had on performance of the cars. A simple mid-season tweak promoted some cars while others went backwards. Not having built the car to right tyre was hugely detrimental for some. The track and conditions also play a huge role in testing - hence teams complaining about Jerez - the track surface and temperature were simply not indicative of the season.

The point is that before you can think about performance, your car needs to work. Running on other tyres allows them to verify that the cooling works, the engine works, the aero does vaguely what it's meant to do, the design doesn't have any fundamental flaws. All of that is important for a top flight team (cough red bull cough), let alone a brand new team starting up with nothing.

Of course they want to get the pirellis on at some point, but to not run at all just because you can't put pirellis on is insane.

[Cam]

Does not matter what tyres they use or which track they use but absolutely vital that they test. It is best for a team with no experience to validate everything they do on track.

I'm a little surprised a statement like this would be made. You only have to look to last year to see what a massive effect tyres had on performance of the cars. A simple mid-season tweak promoted some cars while others went backwards. Not having built the car to right tyre was hugely detrimental for some. The track and conditions also play a huge role in testing - hence teams complaining about Jerez - the track surface and temperature were simply not indicative of the season.

The point is that before you can think about performance, your car needs to work. Running on other tyres allows them to verify that the cooling works, the engine works, the aero does vaguely what it's meant to do, the design doesn't have any fundamental flaws. All of that is important for a top flight team (cough red bull cough), let alone a brand new team starting up with nothing.

Of course they want to get the pirellis on at some point, but to not run at all just because you can't put pirellis on is insane.

I disagree. So what you're saying is Ferrari would be happy to run their current car using 4 year old rubber?

When you spend that much cash on a project, all testing must count and all testing must count towards the final product. The engine and cooling can be tested on a bench (as they do now), the aero via CFD (as they do now) - the only reason you'd do actual running is to test the entire package - which if you're on rock hard rubber from 3 years ago is going to tell you nothing - other than the car is un-drivable.

"how's the test lap going?"
"Yes the car is cooling very well, the indicator is halfway between C & H, but I can't corner or stop and we're very slow".....

I get the point your trying to make, but I just don't agree with it. The tyres are so integral to the how the car functions, having data with anything other then what you need to race with is pointless.

How integral?

Just ask Hembrey if he thinks it's ok to test a current race tyre with an non current F1 car. The reverse is also true.

[NathanOlder]

Yes. Renault and Ferrari would give their left arm to run this years car on even Bridgestone rubber. Just to help workout the best cooling and power solutions.
its only related to these new cars, last year, id understand why they wouldn't bother. But such new PU's. Testing on old tyres would be hugely beneficial.

if bench testing was good enough Renault wouldnt be having these problems. Fact.

[xpensive]

Anyone without a split turbo will be lost in space next year, Ron Dennis is no fool.

MrE knows this, so does MrT and Gene Haas, so what gives?

[natehall]

are we already seeing a benefit for Honda..

especially as McLaren have the class leading engine and whilst im sure it wouldnt happen officially, but some information is going to get fed to honda about how are laid out / work..

especially with the McLarens not being where they want to be on the grid, they hae to be starting to look at a longer term view

[bonjon1979]

The basic architecture of the Honda engine will have been laid down well before the start of the season. Well, Mclaren had better hope so at any rate.

[Cam]

Yes. Renault and Ferrari would give their left arm to run this years car on even Bridgestone rubber. Just to help workout the best cooling and power solutions.
its only related to these new cars, last year, id understand why they wouldn't bother. But such new PU's. Testing on old tyres would be hugely beneficial.

if bench testing was good enough Renault wouldnt be having these problems. Fact.

The front running team seems to be doing ok with bench testing:

Germany's Auto Motor und Sport reports that the Three Pointed Star is testing its new engine on a special test bench, with the V6 turbo installed alongside the latest hybrid technology, transmission and cooling units in a cut-down version of an existing chassis, with the radiators fitted to 2014-spec sidepods and the rear bodywork as permitted by the heavily altered regulations.

[flyboy2160]

OK, you've all have had your chance at country bashing. Some it was reported and I've cleaned the worst of it out. Next time warnings and bans.

[beelsebob]

"how's the test lap going?"
"Yes the car is cooling very well, the indicator is halfway between C & H, but I can't corner or stop and we're very slow".....

As RedBull very well know, this is much better than "how's the test lap going?"... "It's not, the engine blew up again because we never checked the cooling worked".

[321apex]

Haas is another example of buying a restaurant when all you want/need is to eat a steak.
There are other, far easier (cheaper and less complicated) ways to promote a brand than starting and running own F1 team. I do hope he has enough money and conviction to succeed in F1, but am not convinced based on what Mr. Haas has said to date, that own F1 team is the way to forward his goals.

[NathanOlder]

Yes. Renault and Ferrari would give their left arm to run this years car on even Bridgestone rubber. Just to help workout the best cooling and power solutions.
its only related to these new cars, last year, id understand why they wouldn't bother. But such new PU's. Testing on old tyres would be hugely beneficial.

if bench testing was good enough Renault wouldnt be having these problems. Fact.

The front running team seems to be doing ok with bench testing:

Thats purely down to the fact that there has to be a front running team. Not becuase bench twesting put them There.
Running an engine in a mock car with the wrong tyres is better than bench testing. Thats all im saying.

[Pierce89]

I think folks sometimes confuse the absence of expertise in a given discipline for an inability to acquire expertise in that discipline, when they're really not the same at all. What that means here is that there's very little reason for the vast majority of race engineers/designers/whatever in the U.S. to have F1 know-how simply because there are precious few avenues in the U.S. for which that knowledge is applicable. ...

Random factoid: Did you know that an American team, Pratt & Miller, recently dominated its class in GT racing for the better part of 15 years?

...

Most scandiavians I know who has lived outside the seafront cities of the US compare it to Albania technnology-wise.
Give it to me strad?

I would've assumed most Scandinavians had a better understanding of the world than that. I live in Alabama the butt of all the jokes inside America. I've also lived in Augsburg,Bavaria,Germany for nine months. Strangely enough, Amsterdam, Rome, Munich, Paris were all places that posessed equal or lesser technology in public or private hands than Birmingham, Alabama. Huntsville, Alabama with its NASA base and huge IT sector seems to technologically blow away most European cities. Just a reminder, I'm talking about Alabama, one of the most rural states in the US. Rest assured, as our insane military regularly proves, that when it comes to advanced engineering resources, the US is second to none.

[marcush.]

huray ..America is coming and will conquer formula1 ...
knowing this i should place a bet how quickly HAAS Formula will bag the first Championship ...that must be 3 years ,right ? I think if there is a fundamental truth about Formula 1 than it is this one:
everyone who got into it no matter how much success he or she eventually had -had to realise at some Point he had underestimated the mountain to climb ...be it Driver be it Team ,engineer ,supplier .Quite often very well seasoned formula 1 veterans are up to learn this again .....look no further as Mclaren Ferrari ,Renault ,Lotus,Mercedes have all fallen flat on their faces recently underestimating the Task ahead or just as rattling -unables to find a solution to an Engineering exercise at least on a par to the competition!
To claim you could come in from outside and mix it with those already in the tank is a slight denial of recent realitiy checks,don´t you think so ? Success in Formula 1 is more than mixing the pinnacle of Expertise with an open cheque book ...not because it is rocket science but because it is a damn specialised microuniverse .
let´s wait and see if the American dream is even making the grid next year or the year after.

[Cam]

Thats purely down to the fact that there has to be a front running team. Not becuase bench twesting put them There. Running an engine in a mock car with the wrong tyres is better than bench testing. Thats all im saying.

You're going to have to give me more than "because I said so, it's true". I've made an effort to list actual information to back my position - you and Bob, have given nothing, apart from your opinion.

For example:

"Auto Motor und Sport reports that the fire brigade was called to the German manufacturer’s Northamptonshire headquarters on Monday evening after an Formula 1 engine caught fire on a test bench. Mercedes said there was no significant damage, and that the fire department was only summoned as a precaution. But AM&S correspondent Michael Schmidt said that the development of the Mercedes turbo motor has been troublesome, with other incidents having also occurred recently."

This show that Mercedes indeed had issues with their bench testing - now while I cannot prove it was 'cooling' related, or 'engine' related - they did have some serious setbacks. So Red Bull were not alone in this area. Mercedes on the other hand, seemed to overcome these issues to put a current car on the road that performs very well - without having to track test a full chassis with any tyres. Red Bull having issues is not down to lack of track time, but poor bench testing and integration/communication between chassis and engine teams.

Now take:

"Germany's Auto Motor und Sport reports that the Three Pointed Star is testing its new engine on a special test bench, with the V6 turbo installed alongside the latest hybrid technology, transmission and cooling units in a cut-down version of an existing chassis, with the radiators fitted to 2014-spec sidepods and the rear bodywork as permitted by the heavily altered regulations"

Plus

"At this year’s Canadian Grand Prix it was revealed the FIA was investigating whether a Pirelli tire test in May was done using one of Mercedes AMG's 2013 Formula One cars, an illegal action due to rules banning in-season tire tests of current-spec cars."

I consider = team has full test bench capabilities and breaks rules to gain data of current 'spec' tyres = benefit.

Nowhere can I find reports from any racing team worth it's salt saying "yep, we'd love to go track testing with a current F1 car and 2010 tyres". Now, maybe this is indeed the case, but without evidence of such, it's difficult to form an opinion otherwise. If you or Bob could kindly proffer such - I would be glad to reconsider my position.