Horsepower of the engines.

[turbof1]

That flow chart is part of the regulations. I even believe written paragraphs refer to it. There's no mistaking or loophole about it: the ERS output is limited to 120kw. Chene, you have to realize that energy from the mgu-h and ES has to pass through the MGU-K, meaning you are still limited to 120kw output from the electric motor.

Theoritically you are right that they are allowed to utilise unlimited energy. However, the force is still restricted to 120kw. W=J/s. Either you have to break space-time continuum, or you have to lengthen the track to utilise more energy yet keep the same 120kw.

[Juzh]

The secret to self sustain mode is utilising the unlimited, un-monitored energy recovered from the exhaust by the H and transferring it directly to the K.

You don't say?

[Cold Fussion]

Wuzak
I understand that, but maybe I'm expressing myself in a way that some find difficult to understand.
Lets start with the K.
Nowhere in the regulation is the maximum power capability of the unit specified as 120 Kw, they specify max rpm (50 000) & Max torque (200N.M). Also the INPUT from the es to K is monitored (V x I) and this may not exceed 120KW.
Also remember an electric motor can supply any amount of power, from 0KW up to maximum rating, it is the motor drive(mcu) that supplies the power.
So the 120Kw as it appears on the flow diagram Is the maximum power supplied to the K from the MCU (drive) by taking no more than 4Mj of energy per lap from the es.

The secret to self sustain mode is utilising the unlimited, un-monitored energy recovered from the exhaust by the H and transferring it directly to the K.

You are wrong.



5.2.2 explicitly states there are power and energy limits on the system as defined in Appendix 3 (The energy flow diagram). It also states the energy and power are being monitored, if the power limit was merely some derived figure, why would it require monitoring? Furthermore it states that the MGU-K motive power is taken to be 95% of the measured input electrical power.

There is absolutely no legal way that MGU-K can be more than 120kW.

[turbof1]

Exactly that. The best you can do is keeping the turbo spinning at optimal rpm at all times and put out 120kw on the drivetrain at all times.

Which is btw a bit sad it's only 120kw. They could perhaps ramp that up in the future.

[wuzak]

There is absolutely no legal way that MGU-K can be more than 120kW.

Well, actually....

If the MGUK is better than 95% efficient then you would get more power.

A 98% efficient motor would give 123.8kW. But I doubt anybody has a great advantage in that over anybody else.

[Chene_Mostert]

Wuzak
I understand that, but maybe I'm expressing myself in a way that some find difficult to understand.
Lets start with the K.
Nowhere in the regulation is the maximum power capability of the unit specified as 120 Kw, they specify max rpm (50 000) & Max torque (200N.M). Also the INPUT from the es to K is monitored (V x I) and this may not exceed 120KW.
Also remember an electric motor can supply any amount of power, from 0KW up to maximum rating, it is the motor drive(mcu) that supplies the power.
So the 120Kw as it appears on the flow diagram Is the maximum power supplied to the K from the MCU (drive) by taking no more than 4Mj of energy per lap from the es.

The secret to self sustain mode is utilising the unlimited, un-monitored energy recovered from the exhaust by the H and transferring it directly to the K.

You are wrong.

http://i.imgur.com/b2quZ7k.png

5.2.2 explicitly states there are power and energy limits on the system as defined in Appendix 3 (The energy flow diagram). It also states the energy and power are being monitored, if the power limit was merely some derived figure, why would it require monitoring? Furthermore it states that the MGU-K motive power is taken to be 95% of the measured input electrical power.

There is absolutely no legal way that MGU-K can be more than 120kW.

Appendix 3 only defines a energy flow from es. Energy flow from H is unlimited.
Fia can only measure what is defined in the regulation.


 

[turbof1]

Appendix 3 clearly shows that the energy from the mgu-h has to flow to either the turbo charger, 125,000rpm limit, or the mgu-k, limited to the 120kw. The mgu-h is not allowed to be hooked directly to the drivetrain. The energy is only allowed to flow according to that chart. Even the ES is not allowed to do this; it can only supply energy to the mgu-h or the mgu-k. The mgu-h will deliver that energy to the TC to spool it, which again is limited to 125,000rpm, or the mgu-k, which is only allowed 120kw output.

Again, you are allowed in theory to put unlimited energy in the mgu-k. But it does not matter as long as the mgu-k output is limited to 120kw. To put it in simple terms: imagine a chain with each piece of the chain able to cope with 25kg of force. Will the chain be stronger if I insert a piece that can handle 50kg? No it doesn't since the other pieces still break if you go beyond 25kg.

If you still doubt me, then ask yourself the question: how is the mgu-h able to put energy into the engine/drivetrain? Which paths can it take?

[Cold Fussion]

Wuzak
I understand that, but maybe I'm expressing myself in a way that some find difficult to understand.
Lets start with the K.
Nowhere in the regulation is the maximum power capability of the unit specified as 120 Kw, they specify max rpm (50 000) & Max torque (200N.M). Also the INPUT from the es to K is monitored (V x I) and this may not exceed 120KW.
Also remember an electric motor can supply any amount of power, from 0KW up to maximum rating, it is the motor drive(mcu) that supplies the power.
So the 120Kw as it appears on the flow diagram Is the maximum power supplied to the K from the MCU (drive) by taking no more than 4Mj of energy per lap from the es.

The secret to self sustain mode is utilising the unlimited, un-monitored energy recovered from the exhaust by the H and transferring it directly to the K.

You are wrong.

http://i.imgur.com/b2quZ7k.png

5.2.2 explicitly states there are power and energy limits on the system as defined in Appendix 3 (The energy flow diagram). It also states the energy and power are being monitored, if the power limit was merely some derived figure, why would it require monitoring? Furthermore it states that the MGU-K motive power is taken to be 95% of the measured input electrical power.

There is absolutely no legal way that MGU-K can be more than 120kW.

Appendix 3 only defines a energy flow from es. Energy flow from H is unlimited.
Fia can only measure what is defined in the regulation.


 

So if the energy flow is unlimited from MGU-H to MGU-K, and we've established the MGU-K is limited to 120 kW, can you explain to me how more than 120 kW of electric motive power can be deployed?

[Chene_Mostert]

Appendix 3 clearly shows that the energy from the mgu-h has to flow to either the turbo charger, 125,000rpm limit, or the mgu-k, limited to the 120kw. The mgu-h is not allowed to be hooked directly to the drivetrain. The energy is only allowed to flow according to that chart. Even the ES is not allowed to do this; it can only supply energy to the mgu-h or the mgu-k. The mgu-h will deliver that energy to the TC to spool it, which again is limited to 125,000rpm, or the mgu-k, which is only allowed 120kw output.

Again, you are allowed in theory to put unlimited energy in the mgu-k. But it does not matter as long as the mgu-k output is limited to 120kw. To put it in simple terms: imagine a chain with each piece of the chain able to cope with 25kg of force. Will the chain be stronger if I insert a piece that can handle 50kg? No it doesn't since the other pieces still break if you go beyond 25kg.

If you still doubt me, then ask yourself the question: how is the mgu-h able to put energy into the engine/drivetrain? Which paths can it take?

How is the mug-k output monitored?

[turbof1]

Appendix 3 clearly shows that the energy from the mgu-h has to flow to either the turbo charger, 125,000rpm limit, or the mgu-k, limited to the 120kw. The mgu-h is not allowed to be hooked directly to the drivetrain. The energy is only allowed to flow according to that chart. Even the ES is not allowed to do this; it can only supply energy to the mgu-h or the mgu-k. The mgu-h will deliver that energy to the TC to spool it, which again is limited to 125,000rpm, or the mgu-k, which is only allowed 120kw output.

Again, you are allowed in theory to put unlimited energy in the mgu-k. But it does not matter as long as the mgu-k output is limited to 120kw. To put it in simple terms: imagine a chain with each piece of the chain able to cope with 25kg of force. Will the chain be stronger if I insert a piece that can handle 50kg? No it doesn't since the other pieces still break if you go beyond 25kg.

If you still doubt me, then ask yourself the question: how is the mgu-h able to put energy into the engine/drivetrain? Which paths can it take?

How is the mug-k output monitored?

Through readings from the ECU (control unit of the mgu is part of this). Basically the electrical DC gets measured. Everything, and I really mean ev-er-y-thing, is logged and monitored. There's no cheating with this, only thing you can have is disputes between readings from the team and readings from the FIA. Precedence created out of the Red Bull 2014 Melbourne incident suggest the FIA will always win that.

For the record, I understand your confusion. You are correct to state that the mgu-h is allowed to generate, in theory, unlimited energy. However the parts that are able to make use of this, have limitations in output. the outputs remains limited even if you have unlimited input.

Which for the record is a shame btw. There's a lot of potentional that will remain untabbed with an output of 120kw. I hope they raise the bar in the near future.

[Chene_Mostert]

Cold fusion

If I discharge a battery at a rate of 4Mj over 33,33 sec into a variable speed drive, driving a dc motor how much power does the vsd deliver and how much power does the motor convert (assuming 100% efficiency)?
120Kw.
Is this limit defined and measured - yes,
regulation 5,2 and appendix 3

If i now supply an additional 1Mj of energy over 33,3sec to the vsd to drive the electric motor what would the power output of the electric motor now be?
150kw
Is this additional energy source defined -no
Can it be measured if not defined-no

[turbof1]

Cold fusion

If I discharge a battery at a rate of 4Mj over 33,33 sec into a variable speed drive, driving a dc motor how much power does the vsd deliver and how much power does the motor convert (assuming 100% efficiency)?
120Kw.
Is this limit defined and measured - yes,
regulation 5,2 and appendix 3

If i now supply an additional 1Mj of energy over 33,3sec to the vsd to drive the electric motor what would the power output of the electric motor now be?
150kw
Is this additional energy source defined -no
Can it be measured if not defined-no

Chene, the output of the electric motor - the mgu-k- is measured and regulatory set at 120kw. It does not matter if I have 1, 5 or 10 undefined energy sources. Next to the fact undefined energy sources are illegal, all the electric energy sources have to pass through the mgu-k which houses the electric motor, at which point the dc will be measured. If you go beyond 120kw, you are running in an illegal mode. If you try to bypass it, your PU is illegal. Either way, there is no regulatory way to run more then 120kw (well, except within the small margin of the 95% efficiency).

For the record, you can run 2 energy sources, mgu-h and the ES, simultanously. However, the combined kw still is not allowed to exceed 120kw.

(als, what do you exactly mean with "vsd"? Hard to keep up with acronyms!)

[Chene_Mostert]

Cold fusion

If I discharge a battery at a rate of 4Mj over 33,33 sec into a variable speed drive, driving a dc motor how much power does the vsd deliver and how much power does the motor convert (assuming 100% efficiency)?
120Kw.
Is this limit defined and measured - yes,
regulation 5,2 and appendix 3

If i now supply an additional 1Mj of energy over 33,3sec to the vsd to drive the electric motor what would the power output of the electric motor now be?
150kw
Is this additional energy source defined -no
Can it be measured if not defined-no

Chene, the output of the electric motor - the mgu-k- is measured and regulatory set at 120kw. It does not matter if I have 1, 5 or 10 undefined energy sources. Next to the fact undefined energy sources are illegal, all the electric energy sources have to pass through the mgu-k which houses the electric motor, at which point the dc will be measured. If you go beyond 120kw, you are running in an illegal mode. If you try to bypass it, your PU is illegal. Either way, there is no regulatory way to run more then 120kw (well, except within the small margin of the 95% efficiency).

For the record, you can run 2 energy sources, mgu-h and the ES, simultanously. However, the combined kw still is not allowed to exceed 120kw.

(als, what do you exactly mean with "vsd"? Hard to keep
up with acronyms!)

Vsd ( variable speed drive) aka MCU aka drive.

I understand what you say about the 120Kw regulation for the K.
What I want to know where is the 120Kw measured.
Electric motor output is dependant on supplied power input
According to the flow diagram it can only be measured as 120kw from the es, and not from any power supplied by the H as this is not defined in the regulation.
So as long as a team does not supply more than 120Kw (4Mj/33sec) from the es to K, they are within the regulation.
Any additional power from H is "free" as it is not defined by any energy flow limit.

[Tommy Cookers]

I have tried to make the same point at least twice
in principle it is surely possible for MU-K activity from GU-H activity without there being a point at which there is DC power

the rules do not look credible (as preventing any MU-K action exceeding the nominal 120 kW)

and what about qually ?

there may be some doubt regarding the benefit (of the cost in crankshaft power from such high exhaust recovery power)

[Chene_Mostert]

The secret to self sustain mode is utilising the unlimited, un-monitored energy recovered from the exhaust by the H and transferring it directly to the K.

You don't say?

A certain Mark Twain quote comes to mind