I'm supporting not-Alonso

[andrew]

Webber tells it like it is, as always:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85638

....and gets it wrong!

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Webber tells it like it is, as always:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85638

That settles that then!

Thanks

[myurr]

This whole NOT-Alonzo thing has come up because of the team orders issue.I believe that this has to do with the F1 sport as a whole. There is a conflict in the sport in that the constructors title is not as important as the drivers championship. If we put this in football terms(my soccer),it is not all the players from the team that scored the winning goal who are the winners but only the goal scorer and management. In fact the rest of the players would be losers. If the reality was less emphasis on the driver championship and more on the constructors title we would see much more team play between team drivers. Perhaps the only solution is to limit teams to one driver.

Whilst this thread started because of the team orders issue most peoples opinions of him, as evidenced throughout this thread, were over watching him carry on over the last few years.

Taking your football analogy, Alonso is the type of player who would blackmail the manager into him dictating that Alonso was the only player allowed to score.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Whilst this thread started because of the team orders issue most peoples opinions of him, as evidenced throughout this thread, were over watching him carry on over the last few years.

Taking your football analogy, Alonso is the type of player who would blackmail the manager into him dictating that Alonso was the only player allowed to score.

Myurr

I beg you, please reference "evidence" like hand waving and moaning at the team in context with other drivers. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE?
This is not solely Alonso, half the field are guilty of such misdemeanors.

And the football comparison doesnt work....

[myurr]

1st bold text: Actually, if you watch the races, Alonso is one of the most fair drivers on track. He has never been a jerk on track. Yes, sometimes he waves hand at backmaker when they block him. So what? Everyone does that. But I do not remember Alonso running rivals off track or putting dangerous unnecessary moves. Compare this with MS (and LH if you wish) who would regularly squeeze drivers off track. Compare with LH's moves at Spa 08.

Alonso regularly squeezes drivers off if he gets the inside line and can run to the outside - same as all the drivers. He hasn't had any indiscretions that I can think of in the last couple of years but in the past he has brake tested drivers on track and forced others off track in dangerous ways (including Coulthard whilst they were both going down a straight), and as far as I know he's the only driver in modern F1 to have crashed at full throttle in a double waved yellow flag situation (despite marshalls being on track). He's not the dirtiest driver on track in terms of racing, certainly in the last few years, and that wasn't the point I was trying to make. By watch the races I meant the entire race weekend, apologies if this wasn't clear.

2nd bold text: this is a speculation. It is widely reported by the British media, but we only have Ron's word on that (probably even not in a straight words but in a form of vague statements). There is no evidence that ALosno ever demanded No.1 status. One lie repeated 100 times becomes true.

Regardless of the motivation the fact remains that Alonso did blackmail Ron Dennis - that cannot be in question as I believe it formed part of the FIA's legal evidence as the reasons that new information came to light. That he wanted undisputed number one status in the team is the ONLY motivation I have heard for his blackmail, I'd be interested to learn what else you think Alonso would have been blackmailing Ron for.

3rd bold text: what he did back then was wrong. But a yellow flag could mean a small incident like somebody stapped off track and may not be not that dangerous to drive fast. Do you have a respect for a driver who blatantly overtakes the SC to gain advantage (probably deliberately blocking the driver behind)

It was waved double yellows which indicates great danger ahead - drivers are required to slow down and be prepared to stop. It usually also indicates marshalls are on track.

This is not the equivalent of Lewis misjudging the location of the safety car line by a metre or two. Had he floored it just 0.1 seconds earlier then the overtake would have been perfectly legitimate, so no it is not all the same.

[marcush.]

that alonso thing in brazil was unbelievable and worth a lifelong ban...oh wait a minute did we know someone who got that recently? ..
but then apart from Schumacher ..time heals all wounds.fortunatelly no marshall got killed in this.

[jwielage]

that alonso thing in brazil was unbelievable and worth a lifelong ban...oh wait a minute did we know someone who got that recently? ..
but then apart from Schumacher ..time heals all wounds.fortunatelly no marshall got killed in this.

I agree the Brazil incident was pretty bad, but its tough to know what's going through a driver's head at any point in time.

The fact that Alonso crashed makes it extremely memorable, but I would imagine there are plenty of additional instances where drivers have acted similarly but without remarkable consequences so nobody remembers, knows or cares. If Alonso didn't crash, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Also, its rather generous to say that Lewis "misjudged the location of the safety car". His immediate reaction (momentarily letting of the throttle/or braking, not sure) would suggest that he saw the SC realized the correct thing to do would be to queue up behind it. His subsequently decision to ignore the SC was either a lapse in judgment, or the mark of an intelligent competitor. He either thought he would get away with it, or knew that the advantage he would gain would greatly surpass the cost of a drive through penalty. Either way, in hind sight I don't hold it against him because he got the result, either out of dumb luck or a stroke sheer genius.

The fact of the matter is that these incidents aren't as different as a cursory glance would suggest.

[myurr]

that alonso thing in brazil was unbelievable and worth a lifelong ban...oh wait a minute did we know someone who got that recently? ..
but then apart from Schumacher ..time heals all wounds.fortunatelly no marshall got killed in this.

I agree the Brazil incident was pretty bad, but its tough to know what's going through a driver's head at any point in time.

Alonso himself admitted after the crash that he'd seen the flags but decided to go in with full throttle explicitly to gain an advantage over his competitors.

The fact that Alonso crashed makes it extremely memorable, but I would imagine there are plenty of additional instances where drivers have acted similarly but without remarkable consequences so nobody remembers, knows or cares. If Alonso didn't crash, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

But he did crash and we do know that he disregarded the flags. If there have been other cases as dangerous then I will happily criticise those drivers as well. I would be surprised as I believe that the FIA monitor sector times to at least a certain extent.

Also, its rather generous to say that Lewis "misjudged the location of the safety car". His immediate reaction (momentarily letting of the throttle/or braking, not sure) would suggest that he saw the SC realized the correct thing to do would be to queue up behind it. His subsequently decision to ignore the SC was either a lapse in judgment, or the mark of an intelligent competitor. He either thought he would get away with it, or knew that the advantage he would gain would greatly surpass the cost of a drive through penalty. Either way, in hind sight I don't hold it against him because he got the result, either out of dumb luck or a stroke sheer genius.

The fact of the matter is that these incidents aren't as different as a cursory glance would suggest.

I completely disagree with you - my take on it is that Lewis saw the safety car his instant reaction was not to pass, especially as it cut the pit lane by mistake, but then he remembered that it was still in the pit lane and that he was allowed to pass and so went for it. He misjudged the position of the line when making that assessment. I do not think there was any conscious choice to go for it regardless expecting to get away without penalty, after all that penalty could have cost him many positions or the safety car could have released the cars earlier - he didn't know the benefits and potential downsides as we now do, there was no hindsight in that instant decision. There was merely confusion about when he had to form up behind the car. It's not exactly a regular occurrence to catch the car at that point and the rules had been recently changed - even the BBC commentary crew were unsure initially of the rules.

So no these incidents are not equivalent in my view. One was calculated and deliberate, the other born of confusion and a slight misjudgement. We're talking a 2 metre difference instead of a 100mph difference.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Myurr
You dismissing the Hamilton incident with the saftey car as a "reaction", but lambasting Alonso for his flag incident makes a mockery of your argument.

Hamilton saw the safety car.
He chose to continue.

End of.

Now a saftey car incident is far worse than mere yellow flags, its a wrung below Red flag conditions.
Alonso chose to continue flat under yellow conditions.
Hamilton ignored a satey car.

To suggest Alonso is worse for ignoring a yellow over Lewis ignoring a safety car, is a suggestion too far for me to continue constructive debate, and I'm sad you also see it fit to continue the "character" line without giving a comparison to Alonso's peers.

[myurr]

Myurr
You dismissing the Hamilton incident with the saftey car as a "reaction", but lambasting Alonso for his flag incident makes a mockery of your argument.

Hamilton saw the safety car.
He chose to continue.

End of.

Now a saftey car incident is far worse than mere yellow flags, its a wrung below Red flag conditions.
Alonso chose to continue flat under yellow conditions.
Hamilton ignored a satey car.

To suggest Alonso is worse for ignoring a yellow over Lewis ignoring a safety car, is a suggestion too far for me to continue constructive debate, and I'm sad you also see it fit to continue the "character" line without giving a comparison to Alonso's peers.

Sorry but your post makes a complete mockery of reality. You are saying that misjudging a white line by 2 metres is worse than pilling into an accident zone at 100mph more than you should! What part of 'you are allowed to pass the safety car before it passes the safety car line and joins the track' are you failing to grasp?

[ESPImperium]

All i know is that i used to be pro-Alonso and anti-Hamilton, but that has now changed due to what ive seen off track so far this season. Hamilton has matured and Alonso is in the sweet shop spitting out his dummy. There are other things im seeing as well, in Hamiltons driving that is impressing me, the fact he is less aggressive, but that i think is down to Buttons influence.

I used to almost hate the sight of Hamilton, but now i dont mind the guy. Alonso on the other hand not so much.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Sorry but your post makes a complete mockery of reality. You are saying that misjudging a white line by 2 metres is worse than pilling into an accident zone at 100mph more than you should! What part of 'you are allowed to pass the safety car before it passes the safety car line and joins the track' are you failing to grasp?

The reality that a Safety car has been deployed?

Hamilton saw it, regardless of if it had been 2 meters behind the line, what he did was advantageous to himself that hampered all behind him.

Had he stormed round the corner into a wreck would you be arguing Myurr?
Exactly!

[myurr]

The reality that a Safety car has been deployed?

Hamilton saw it, regardless of if it had been 2 meters behind the line, what he did was advantageous to himself that hampered all behind him.

Had he stormed round the corner into a wreck would you be arguing Myurr?
Exactly!

Presuming that the safety car had been travelling at 100mph at the point it crossed the line then:

• Lewis mistimed his pass of the safety car by 0.045 seconds.
  Still complied with the lap time delta thereafter so was not putting anyone at greater risk than any of the other cars that were still circulating (ie. the vast majority of the field).
  At that point the safety car was not actually forming up the grid merely escorting the medical car, something Lewis did not impede in any way.
  Did not deliberately drive into the accident zone at a dangerous speed.
  Didn't cause an accident, come close to causing an accident, put anyone at risk.

In contrast Alonso deliberately drove into the accident zone at full throttle at probably 100mph more than the other drivers, caused a massive accident that injured himself and caused debris to be flung across the track narrowly missing a marshall, and was incredibly lucky that no one else was injured.

[grip]

Again, I do not think this is a character issue. I think this is a FIA/stewarts/F1 issue. The resulting drivers character traits stem from the rules and the application of them. Too often those who cheat do not get caught or if they do, they do not pay a high enough price. Drivers have that in mind and therefore roll the dice in certain situations.

[grip]

With regards to breaking the rules, a rule is a rule, if you break one, you should be punished. Once you have taken the punishment, it should be forgotten.

I still do not understand why the pits are not closed right before the safety car is deloyed and reopened once it comes in. The whole idea of drivers gaining an avantage based on where they were on the track when an accident happened turns F1 in to a lottery and should be removed.