Are we seeing a Vettel era?

[beelsebob]

So you have a young guy breaking all records, dominating the --- out of everyone, in a car that is not even that superior (if at all) relative to other dominating drivers/cars of the past, and some of you are doubting his skill? LOL

What makes you think that the car isn't massively superior?

The guy in that other supposedly superior car is standing... 4th and has won how many races? Exactly.

What makes you think this has to do with the car and not Webber himself?

It's pretty clear Vettel is the best driver out there

What evidence do you have to back that up?

The point of racing is to be the fastest, having to overtake means you are clearly not the fastest.

Or that you clearly don't have the fastest car.

He also seems to be one of the few who IMPROVES, others seem to stagnate or even regress (Hamilton being a prime example).

He's certainly improved relative to his team mate – the question is is that due to him improving or his team mate regressing? The same question can be applied to the Hamilton/Button situation. I'd be inclined to say a little from column A, a little from column B in both scenarios.

Unless they --- up his car, we're going to see a Vettel-era. He's an improved Schumacher in every possible sense.

So he's just a good driver lucky enough to have an awesome car beneath him, just like Schumacher then?

[raymondu999]

So you have a young guy breaking all records, dominating the --- out of everyone, in a car that is not even that superior (if at all) relative to other dominating drivers/cars of the past, and some of you are doubting his skill? LOL

What makes you think that the car isn't massively superior?

that wasn't jdlive's point. JDlive's point is that the RB7 has nowhere near the pace dominance of the Schumacher Ferraris/Hakkinen McLarens/mid-90s Williamses

[jdlive]

I'd say the numbers are pretty good evidence of his superiority.

What makes you think the car is massively superior? Why isn't Webber even close to doing the same stuff Vettel is doing if their car is massively superior? He has a lot more experience than Vettel so if the car is that great and that much of a factor, Webber would be doing more with it.

[jdlive]

So you have a young guy breaking all records, dominating the --- out of everyone, in a car that is not even that superior (if at all) relative to other dominating drivers/cars of the past, and some of you are doubting his skill? LOL

What makes you think that the car isn't massively superior?

that wasn't jdlive's point. JDlive's point is that the RB7 has nowhere near the pace dominance of the Schumacher Ferraris/Hakkinen McLarens/mid-90s Williamses

Exactly. Vettel is not winning races by 60 second margins.

[PlatinumZealot]

So you have a young guy breaking all records, dominating the --- out of everyone, in a car that is not even that superior (if at all) relative to other dominating drivers/cars of the past, and some of you are doubting his skill? LOL

The guy in that other supposedly superior car is standing... 4th and has won how many races? Exactly.

It's pretty clear Vettel is the best driver out there, so what if he drives from start to finish in first place and doesn't have to overtake? The point of racing is to be the fastest, having to overtake means you are clearly not the fastest.

He also seems to be one of the few who IMPROVES, others seem to stagnate or even regress (Hamilton being a prime example).

Unless they --- up his car, we're going to see a Vettel-era. He's an improved Schumacher in every possible sense.

Trying hard you still are not convincing. I could just say it is all in the car and Webber is performing like Massa and everything above is nullified. It's only three years in a dominant car. Mclaren and Ferrari have started the season 1 second behind in all those years.

[PlatinumZealot]

Exactly. Vettel is not winning races by 60 second margins.

New rules. He could if he wanted too at some times.

But anyway - I see him no different than when Button was in the Brawn for the first half of the season? Button is good but he isn't that fast and he got like 7 pole positions in a row. Vettel could just be another Jenson Button with a Massa team mate. What can you say to that?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Regardless of wether its car or driver pace, Have we ever seen a driver make as few mistakes as Vettel in a season?

He is metronomic in everything he does with that race car. And for that alone he deserves his championship regardless of his Newey designed rocket. Maybe it won't be the same with Hamilton or Alonso alongside him, but then they have their own demons in this area too.

[jdlive]

I'm not trying anything, look at the facts/numbers, they need no "support".

I also could care less if it was actually "Vebastian Settel" doing all that, I'm not a Vettel-fan nor a fan of any other driver. I follow the sport and look at the facts.

This is just another one of those success-stories in which people can only hate on the one having the success. Every man or woman that has reached the top in any endeavor is hated upon by the herd and did not receive the credit they were due.

[PlatinumZealot]

What do you mean? Vettel is not even worth hating. He's a good kid. Too "nice" to hate. His successes does not even affect the Alonso's, Button's and Hamilton's of this world. No vitriol at all. No rivalry.

He's just consistently maximising his machinery. Agreed?

MY whole point is, as long as Mclaren and Ferrari start the season 1 to 2 seconds behind he has no rival, no fight to win... Agreed?

[jdlive]

Both Mclaren's as well as 1 Ferrari are consistently beating the other Red Bull so once again, I fail to see the supposed significant car advantage there. We have in fact heard more than once from insiders that "the Mclaren has better race pace".

Maximizing the machinery is basically what F1 is about no? Who cares if someone else could theoretically drive faster, that's not quantifiable and thus merely imagination. Unless someone actually starts doing it, there is no proof for those claims.

[beelsebob]

So you have a young guy breaking all records, dominating the --- out of everyone, in a car that is not even that superior (if at all) relative to other dominating drivers/cars of the past, and some of you are doubting his skill? LOL

What makes you think that the car isn't massively superior?

that wasn't jdlive's point. JDlive's point is that the RB7 has nowhere near the pace dominance of the Schumacher Ferraris/Hakkinen McLarens/mid-90s Williamses

But only because there was no reason to not open out a 30 second lead in 1990, but there is now, because you need to save fuel and engine/gearbox wear. We have no idea how big a lead vettel would have if he was actually pushing all the way at some of these circuits.

[beelsebob]

I'm not trying anything, look at the facts/numbers, they need no "support".

The facts and numbers are that Vettel is dominating Webber less than Alonso is dominating Massa. If the Ferrari and RBR had their roles reversed, Alonso would be out front, and Massa wouldn't even be in the battle for second place.

Clearly Webber is relatively significantly worse than Vettel this year. This does not say anything about the performance of the RB7 though.

There *is* good evidence that the RB7 is a significantly superior car though - for example post race comments from following drivers saying "wow, you can get through turn abc so fast, you must have 30 points more downforce than us".

The point is, you have provided no evidence (but a lot of rhetoric) than Vettel is very fast and the car mediocre. I have provided no evidence that the car is very fast and that vettel is simply good. We do not know which it is – stop trying to make it seem like we do .

[beelsebob]

Both Mclaren's as well as 1 Ferrari are consistently beating the other Red Bull so once again, I fail to see the supposed significant car advantage there. We have in fact heard more than once from insiders that "the Mclaren has better race pace".

Maximizing the machinery is basically what F1 is about no? Who cares if someone else could theoretically drive faster, that's not quantifiable and thus merely imagination. Unless someone actually starts doing it, there is no proof for those claims.

Notably, both McLarens and a Ferrari have world drivers champions in them, while the second RB7 has a mediocre driver in it. Shall we compare the Ferrari with a mediocre driver in it to the RB7 with a mediocre driver in it? Oh look Massa is no where near the battle for 2nd in the championship, this would lend support to the idea that the RB7 is a quicker car than the Ferrari.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

This debate could go on forever.

But can we all agree that Vettel is very good, we just don't know exactly how good he is?

[beelsebob]

This debate could go on forever.

But can we all agree that Vettel is very good, we just don't know exactly how good he is?

Absolutely we can!