Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

The entire assembly, inlet, impeller, and outlet along with the wastegate(s)

[pgfpro]

If your turbo is small and it's dependent on high revs to maintain adequate boost, it makes the compressor more sensitive to changes in compressor speed. Arai even said as much, now if you have a compressor that makes max boost at say 80k rpm, it will have a larger efficiency island than one that can only make max boost pressure at the 125k rpm limit. You can over-rev the former compressor slightly and use MGU-H harvesting to slow it down and bring the compressor into it's peak efficiency island. On the other hand, you cannot employ the same strategy with a turbo that makes max boost at the peak rpm limit, any reduction in compressor rpm could bring you out of the peak boost island, which reduces exhaust gases engine power, and lessens MGU-H recovery.

It would be even worse if your MGU-H runs hot because then you can't use it as effectively to control boost pressure.

The turbo doesn't have a maximum rpm, the MGUH does. But the MGUH can be geared to the turbo's shaft.

The MGUH should be able to balance the turbo such that the desired rpm and boost levels are met without needing to slow it down. All it does, in fact, is stop it from speeding up.

godlameroso I agree with wuzak in the above statement. When the MGUH loads the turbo in generation mode the compressor wheel speed stays the same. It does not move in the compressor map.

I have had several high pressure turbos that I have killed in my compound setup. I can tell you this happens when the high pressure turbo starts to take out the thrust bearing by my data logs recording exhaust back pressure. The back pressure will increase meaning the turbo is dragging on the thrust bearing, but it will still flow the same mass air because the turbo wheel speed stays the same. This is what I see happening when the MGUH is in generation mode. Now if I catch it in time before the turbo starts to slow the wheel speed I can rebuild the turbo before any compressor wheel damage.

With todays F1 PU I think the turbine is design around the MGUH loading at some degree all the time. This where I disagreed with Ringo a couple years back where I thought there would be no need for a waste gate. Now I realize I was wrong and the waste gate has to be used to fine tune the the turbine because the MGUH is a major part of the turbine efficiency.

[Wazari]

I think it's important to consider that when Arai-san or other Honda engineers say that the turbine needs/will be bigger; that doesn't necessarily mean the physical size of the turbocharger itself has to be bigger. I think some things might be taken too literally during the translation process. I'm pretty sure "bigger" in this case should be understood as "bigger capacity" with regards to torque/rpm output. This can be accomplished without having to make the physical housing bigger as has been mentioned before. I have seen some comments on other threads about how can "size 0" be kept with components getting bigger. If anything, Honda will work to make the packaging even tighter to follow PP's ultimate (therefore McLaren's) wishes for smaller surface area in the rear bodywork.

[Chicane]

.......................................F1 to scrap power unit token system from 2017................................

Formula 1's power unit token system will be scrapped from 2017, Motorsport.com has learned.

The move means the four manufacturers will face no limits on development, other than the fact that they can only introduce upgrades when a driver uses new elements.

The change was one of the key concessions made when the manufacturers agreed to cut their prices to customers in 2017.

All four now have works teams and will justify their spending in terms of making their own squads competitive, without the cost being passed on to the teams they supply.

This year the manufacturers still have 32 tokens, but that was due to drop to 25 in 2017, 20 in 2018, and then 15 from 2019 to the end of the current formula.

Just three per year were to be allowed for the last two years of the formula, on the basis that manufacturers would have to develop an engine to new rules.

"The token system is being removed," Renault's Cyril Abiteboul said today. "One of the reasons we have all agreed to do this is that we all need the performance of the engine to converge.

"An F1 that is dictated by the performance of the engine is not good for anyone.

"You see it is not good for Mercedes, it is not good for Renault, Ferrari – we all have interest to change that.

"We have decided, also for the public, to stop the public being confused between the penalty system, the token system – we have decided to simply remove the token system."

It had already been agreed to scrap for 2016 the 'black and white' parts system, which specified that some elements could not be updated after a certain points.

That means items that were previously going to be fixed this year – such as upper and lower crankcase dimensions – have been freed up.


http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-to ... 17-671488/

[Andres125sx]

Only if F1 could keep same rules for 5 seasons at least....

[Chicane]

I think for next season it was not going to make a big difference anyways as pretty much every part of the power unit is allowed development, 32 tokens are available with a flexibility of utilizing them whenever necessary. The only irk i feel is that had tokens restrictions not been there Honda would have implemented the changes needed without having to wait. I am silently optimistic that Honda will turn it around cos they are not changing the layout of the power unit which suggest to the fact that the issues were not catastrophic enough to require a layout change and additional deployment can be gained via design changes and marginal size changes.

The turbine currently sits outside the V anyway so at least there Honda do not have to compromise there. It is the compressor which will garner maximum interest as to how Honda are going to optimize the ICE output when under harvesting from MGU-H? Will they be able to spin the compressor at much higher velocity keeping the heat/vibration in check? I just believe from a layman's perspective that they will try to enlarge the compressor as much as they can within the constraints of the cylinder banks, make it spin faster than they are currently managing to and make design changes to make sure there are no overheating issues consequent of running it at a higher rpm. I am a noob at these things but i just feel Honda are silently optimistic that they can turn this around cos they have had time to look at what went wrong and first hand information about the matter.

[-wkst-]

I think for next season it was not going to make a big difference anyways as pretty much every part of the power unit is allowed development, 32 tokens are available with a flexibility of utilizing them whenever necessary.

No difference? That would be a big difference. They could refine every part of the PU whenever they use a new component. Let's say they don't have the best solution for the compressor ready yet for season start, but a good part-solution. They could use it, next change (3-4 races later) to the compressor which is nearer on their optimum solution, same game in 7-8 races. And so on.

Now, with the token-system many parts of the PU won't change over the season because they don't have enough token to change every little thing. And I guess: changing many of this little things will have a big impact of the output of the whole unit at the end of the season.

[hemichromis]

So they have an engine development freeze until the engines are approaching parity then open development?

Isn't that the opposite of the V8 era?

[mclaren111]

Andres125sx :
Only if F1 could keep same rules for 5 seasons at least....

That's like asking Donald Trump to be sensible and understandable

[wuzak]

So they have an engine development freeze until the engines are approaching parity then open development?

Isn't that the opposite of the V8 era?

The V8s had open regs for only one season, then they were homologated and development frozen.

[Joseki]

I've heard other rumors about some problems Honda is having on dyno: they seems to have good power but it's still unreliable, 17 days and we'll know more.

[Alonsofor2017]

I've heard other rumors about some problems Honda is having on dyno: they seems to have good power but it's still unreliable, 17 days and we'll know more.

If that is the case that might be due to them trying to stick to there philosophy which is on the edge, hopefully they get it right

[GoranF1]

I've heard other rumors about some problems Honda is having on dyno: they seems to have good power but it's still unreliable, 17 days and we'll know more.

I am wiling to bet my house those rumors came or origineted in Italy.....if anyone Italians know what Alonso can do,so their fear is only natural.

[Joseki]

I've heard other rumors about some problems Honda is having on dyno: they seems to have good power but it's still unreliable, 17 days and we'll know more.

I am wiling to bet my house those rumors came or origineted in Italy.....if anyone Italians know what Alonso can do,so their fear is only natural.

Actually I'm italian and I know a ton of people how support Alonso, it's probably the third most popular driver here.

[GoranF1]