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Lewis Hamilton has won the German Grand Prix at the Nürburgring after fighting a battle all through the race with second placed finished Fernando Alonso and third man on the podium, Mark Webber. Only in the final stint did Lewis manage to pull a small gap to his closest competitors.
I did not mean to dump on you; I was simply stating that beyond all the perception. Alonso was brought in to be #1, and it is very hard to promote a guy who has struggled as much as Massa has this season. Now he appears to be coming to terms with the 150 and the Pirellis. If he were to qualify on the pole and Alonso 5th I doubt if Fred would even have a chance to get close to him with Vettel Webber, and The Boss in between. So I was really just agreeing with ecapox more than I was disagreeing with you personally. Massa upped his game against Kimi, and Ferrari made Kimi ride Bitch for him in the last two races that season. I doubt it would be any different if he could consistently out-qualify Alonso. I guess I did seem to go off on your comment, but it really was meant to address the fantasy-generic sympathy for Massa.godlameroso wrote:Look I'm not saying Alonso is some pampered prima donna, in the same breath you have to consider that Alonso almost always ends up in front of Massa and stays there regardless if Massa is faster or not, while the same cannot be said of Massa. Canada this year was a perfect example, Massa was clearly faster than Alonso, but Alonso would not let him past. I don't have to remind people of Hockenheim last year to see the inverse is not true. It's a moot point anyway as team orders are legal this year.
Malaysia 2011, China 2011, Australia 2011, Australia 2010, China 2010 - in each case Alonso was behind Massa and Massa did not let him through.godlameroso wrote:Look I'm not saying Alonso is some pampered prima donna, in the same breath you have to consider that Alonso almost always ends up in front of Massa and stays there regardless if Massa is faster or not, while the same cannot be said of Massa. Canada this year was a perfect example, Massa was clearly faster than Alonso, but Alonso would not let him past. I don't have to remind people of Hockenheim last year to see the inverse is not true. It's a moot point anyway as team orders are legal this year.
It's a natural thing that you have to defend if you are not faster than the guy behind. Obviously Alonso did not have to fight with Webber or Hamilton meaning he was faster than Massa (Or Vettel was just a lot quicker than the guys in front because he was all over Massa only limited by TopSpeed)godlameroso wrote:I don't think Massa was trying to catch up to the lead pack, but rather hold back Vettel, If you saw the way he drove, he was taking the defensive line through the turns rather than the fastest one. I don't think it's a good strategy for Ferrari, but that's what they want to do. I think Massa has the pace to keep up with Alonso, and even be faster in some circumstances, but Ferrari does not want any conflicts, and does not let Massa challenge Alonso.
If god is the optimum you can reach in your definition, then there were a couple of driver that drove more divine than god....HampusA wrote:Massa drove like a god, big ups for him.
On that note, it was clever from RedBull to delay the pitstop and do it simultaniously with Massa. Their box is right at the beginning of the pits, Ferrari's the one further down. Now if Vettel comes in directly behind Massa, which he did, he will be very very close getting out again IF both have a similar pitstop time. However, if he's only 2 tenths quicker, Ferrari CANNOT release Massa as it would have been an unsafe releaseHampusA wrote:He did his job, and that was to keep Vettel behind him.
He was let down by a wheelnut problem, that´s all.
So all RedBull had to do was to do a very good pitstop and that's all 
Precisely.HampusA wrote:He did his job, and that was to keep Vettel behind him.
He was let down by a wheelnut problem, that´s all.
Pit straight is just as long for everyoneMandrake wrote:On that note, it was clever from RedBull to delay the pitstop and do it simultaniously with Massa. Their box is right at the beginning of the pits, Ferrari's the one further down. Now if Vettel comes in directly behind Massa, which he did, he will be very very close getting out again IF both have a similar pitstop time. However, if he's only 2 tenths quicker, Ferrari CANNOT release Massa as it would have been an unsafe release
Alonso is simply a better driver. On all possible levels.Tazio wrote:Precisely.
I am slightly mystified and really think that the proponents of Felipe don’t treat him with the same objectivity as a teammate of Alonso's as they have as the # 2 at every other team he drove for.
Let's take a look at his career, and compare it with his teammates. I took a liking to Massa when he drove his last 2year at Sauber because the team was not very good but Massa showed well and outpaced JV for the races he was there. Unlike his first season where he was very mistake prone, being beaten roundly by his teammate Fisi He got shafted his second year and was a test driver for Ferrari. He was # 2 to Mike after that, #2 to Kimi the 2 seasons after that, and after almost beating The Boss in a season that was closely contended, (Hamilton IMO really won the WDC by default) as Ferrari's # 1 had a very lackluster season. Then along comes Fred. Fred is actually younger than Massa. Massa has 10 years in F1 Alonso 11 seasons with both of them having spent one as a test driver. Fred at Renault afer leaving McLaren and Massa at Ferrari in 2003 I was very impressed with Massa's 2004,and 2005 campaigns with Sauber because he made it a habit of getting in the points (usually by running one stoppers when others were running two. Massa never had to race for Minardi (as Fred did in 2002 where he scored a grand total of zero points), although many were impressed by how close he got, placing the Minardi consistently in the midfield. Massa has been a number 2 on every team he has raced for including Sauber (at least when Fisi was there) I never heard any complaints about Massa assuming a career # 2 status until Fred came to Ferrari. Both Fred and Massa drove for competitive teams but Massa at Ferrari when Alonso had his second career with an uncompetitive Renault. Yet Alonso has 250% more wins than Massa as well as roughly the same dedspairity of podiums, and points. Why is it that a 30year old, who has always been a #2 suddenly being shafted by a pilot younger than him who has demonstrated much better craft. Don't answer that I will. Fred is the whipping boy for the English tabloids, and the people that read them swallow this crap hook line and sinker.
I guess you haven't understood what I was explaining to you....yes it has the same length for everyone....but since Massa has to rejoin the fast lane when Vettel is already on it, Vettel just has to gain 2meters to make it an unsafe release for Ferrari....Had they both had the same pitstop time, Massa would come out a couple of centimeters in front of Vettel, even the slightest time advantage in the pits for Vettel would have led to an unsafe release by Ferrari. Got me now?HampusA wrote:Pit straight is just as long for everyone
There are no gains in pit placement except for when maybe it´s traffic.
there where however dis-advantages for RBR at Silverstone for example.
Very well stated!HampusA wrote:Alonso is simply a better driver. On all possible levels.Tazio wrote:Precisely.
I am slightly mystified and really think that the proponents of Felipe don’t treat him with the same objectivity as a teammate of Alonso's as they have as the # 2 at every other team he drove for.
Let's take a look at his career, and compare it with his teammates. I took a liking to Massa when he drove his last 2year at Sauber because the team was not very good but Massa showed well and outpaced JV for the races he was there. Unlike his first season where he was very mistake prone, being beaten roundly by his teammate Fisi He got shafted his second year and was a test driver for Ferrari. He was # 2 to Mike after that, #2 to Kimi the 2 seasons after that, and after almost beating The Boss in a season that was closely contended, (Hamilton IMO really won the WDC by default) as Ferrari's # 1 had a very lackluster season. Then along comes Fred. Fred is actually younger than Massa. Massa has 10 years in F1 Alonso 11 seasons with both of them having spent one as a test driver. Fred at Renault afer leaving McLaren and Massa at Ferrari in 2003 I was very impressed with Massa's 2004,and 2005 campaigns with Sauber because he made it a habit of getting in the points (usually by running one stoppers when others were running two. Massa never had to race for Minardi (as Fred did in 2002 where he scored a grand total of zero points), although many were impressed by how close he got, placing the Minardi consistently in the midfield. Massa has been a number 2 on every team he has raced for including Sauber (at least when Fisi was there) I never heard any complaints about Massa assuming a career # 2 status until Fred came to Ferrari. Both Fred and Massa drove for competitive teams but Massa at Ferrari when Alonso had his second career with an uncompetitive Renault. Yet Alonso has 250% more wins than Massa as well as roughly the same dedspairity of podiums, and points. Why is it that a 30year old, who has always been a #2 suddenly being shafted by a pilot younger than him who has demonstrated much better craft. Don't answer that I will. Fred is the whipping boy for the English tabloids, and the people that read them swallow this crap hook line and sinker.
The reason Massa is nr2 driver like many of you like to call him for some reason is because he performs less then his teammate.
In 08 Massa was nr1 but just managed to miss out on the WDC.
The beginning of every season both drivers, doesn´t matter who they are or what they have done, nobody is a nr2 or nr1 driver.
You become a nr2 drive because of how you perform in relation to your teammate or when you simply have no chance of getting the title.
Kimi helped Massa in 08 and the same goes for Massa in ´10 and ´11 when he´s theoretically out of contention.
If he could beat Alonso or at least keep up with him then he wouldn't be number 2.HampusA wrote: Agree!, It´s up to Massa himself if he wants to win a title or not be a nr2 driver.