2014 Engine yin yang

[tpe]

The intercooler is air to air which is very much less efficient compüared to air to water as the radiator works. Hence much more surface is needed.

OK. And a combination of Air/"Water"/Air is heavy, right?
Does anyone has any kind of comment about the packaging?

[skoop]

according to AMuS every engine manufacturer has huge realibility problems (an engine lasts max. for 300km yet) and there are rumors ferrari needs more fuel then 100kg.
you can read the full story here:

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 20778.html

[astracrazy]

*3000 km you mean?

from the other thread

SPECULATIONS ALERT! Michael Schmidt (Auto Motor und Sport) on issues with 2014 powertrains

It is said,

• Ferrari has problem with the fuel consumption
  At the beginning of the year during a meeting of the Powertrain Working Group, Ferrari had suggested to raise the race fuel consumption limit from 100 to 110 kilograms. Of course, it was rejected as there is a fuel consumption descalator built into the regulatory roadmap that will require the teams to deliver competitive racing with less fuel each year thereafter.
• 2014 powertrains are not reliable enough
  No unit made more than 3,000 kilometres during trial runs. While Rob White (Renault Sport F1) believes 3,600 kilometres would be enough, Mercedes reportedly set 5,000 kilometres as a benchmark.
  Problem is not with the internal combustion engine itself, but especially with the turbocharger. For example, "a crack in the exhaust may damage the turbine, whereas at the today's engine, only the sound changed," explains White.
  Mercedes also concerns about the "highly complicated" energy storage (ES). "Battery consists of 170 cells, if it is not assembled correctly, the same thing as with the Boeing Dreamliner could happen," says Niki Lauda.
• Will we see huge power differences between qualifying and race like in the old turbo days?
  Niki Lauda: "I assume that the power difference will be more like 10 than 100HP. In terms of the reliability, it is better to run the engine at as constant as possible operating conditions."

Well, yeah, Lauda is not an engineer and sorry if this add nothing to the discussion, but maybe it can give some insight into what happens behind closed doors...

so to be quiet frank, if the above is true f1 is heading down sh*t's creak without a paddle for 2014. We'll get failure after failure leading to penalty after penalty. Might put a bet on now for Max Chilton to be f1 world champion in 2014....

[SectorOne]

So 2 engines is almost enough to cover the races just about. Then 3 engines for pre-season testing, practice etc?

[FoxHound]

Whats the penalty for an engine change next year?

[langwadt]

Whats the penalty for an engine change next year?

think that's a complex question, looks like you can change an engine and start from the pit
but you can only five units in total for a season, they split the power unit in six parts (ICE,MGU-K, MGU-H,ES, TC,CE)
and you can use five of each once you use the sixth of a certain part you get penalties

[Richard]

So if a driver uses one part for the sixth time they might as well change everything?

[langwadt]

So if a driver uses one part for the sixth time they might as well change everything?

nope.

afaict you get 10 places for the first number six part, but the remaining number six parts only 5 places

so a whole new power plant you get 10 places for the first part and additional 5 places for each following part,
10+5+5+5+5+5 = 35 places for a whole power plant, the places that cannot be applied at the event
will carry over to the next event ..ouch..

[dren]

SPECULATIONS ALERT! Michael Schmidt (Auto Motor und Sport) on issues with 2014 powertrains

It is said,

• Will we see huge power differences between qualifying and race like in the old turbo days?
  Niki Lauda: "I assume that the power difference will be more like 10 than 100HP. In terms of the reliability, it is better to run the engine at as constant as possible operating conditions."

Well, yeah, Lauda is not an engineer and sorry if this add nothing to the discussion, but maybe it can give some insight into what happens behind closed doors...

If that's the case, the max ES will not be used. This has been guessed at a few times on here. Of course the teams are all blowing smoke right now, too.

[ESPImperium]

Ive just ran some figures, as ive been writing an article for a blog on the V8 engines, and using the V8s as a bench mark, 1,500KM is a present lifespan of an engine block, but some do less and some do more as 4 engines do 3 races and 4 engines do two.

In 2014 the life of an engine will have to be at about 2,600km, as all engines will do 4 GP, but there will be 3 of the 5 engines doing four GP each, and one will do 3 GP and one will do 5 GP i think, if you want one engine to do Spa, Monza and maybe a track like Canada as well, basically the three heaviest load tracks on one block and the 5 lowest load tracks in another block.

However, i do believe that the V6T engines will have a crap load of failures at one point, i am thinking there could be as much as half the grid on a 6th block at one point. Especially when each car will only be limited to having two engines at each race in order to cut freight costs.

I also think the F1 regs have missed a trick, making it mandatory that every new engine has to do 3 consecutive races, and making the use of Friday engines a thing of the past.

2014 engines will be very, very intriguing in the next few months.

[SectorOne]

In terms of engine life, here´s from BMW.


http://sd-2.archive-host.com/membres/up ... BMW_F1.pdf

[skoop]

here you can read an interesting interview with rob white: http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 21477.html

the main points are:

- turbo fire will be back. but not as much as in previews days becouse now the fuel mass is limited and back in the day it was air limited

- the driver will be able to access a small amount of kers by himself but according to white there wont be any kers button

- he says the engine will have avout 760ps (no news here)

- he doesn't give any infos about the ps difference between quali and race. He also states it's wrong to compare quali/race ps. You have to compare full power mode and fuel saving mode becouse at some point in the race the driver may have access to full engine power

- he says driver will be able to push 100% in the race even with the limited fuel. But drivers will have to manage fuel and that will be a very difficult task

- drivers might get a fuel consuption display or something like that

- there will be races (for example silverstone) where the driver wont be able to completely load kers

- an engine has to last 3600km

- drivers wont use 1st gear (monza) or 8 gear(monte carlo)



edit: yes, i meant 3000km in my previews post. sorry for the typo

[astracrazy]

- he says driver will be able to push 100% in the race even with the limited fuel. But drivers will have to manage fuel and that will be a very difficult task

does that not in a way contradict itself

[CBeck113]

- he says driver will be able to push 100% in the race even with the limited fuel. But drivers will have to manage fuel and that will be a very difficult task

does that not in a way contradict itself

No, not really, otherwise a driver in a car with less power would never be able to give 100%. When the driver changes the engine map to save fuel, he should still be able to drive to the car's limits (tires, brakes, etc. should hold up the entire stint / race). I have a bad feeling about this whole situation, that they maybe went a bit too far this time. It may be entertaining for the casual viewer, seeing engines going up all through the field, but we want to see the cars race, not die...most of the time at least .

[GrandAxe]

- he says driver will be able to push 100% in the race even with the limited fuel. But drivers will have to manage fuel and that will be a very difficult task

does that not in a way contradict itself

No, not really, otherwise a driver in a car with less power would never be able to give 100%. When the driver changes the engine map to save fuel, he should still be able to drive to the car's limits (tires, brakes, etc. should hold up the entire stint / race). I have a bad feeling about this whole situation, that they maybe went a bit too far this time. It may be entertaining for the casual viewer, seeing engines going up all through the field, but we want to see the cars race, not die...most of the time at least .

Bets are that by January they'd have fixed the rumoured reliability issues.
As for fuel consumption, there might be places where a few extra kilo's can be hidden (as already discussed) and that clever things can be done to measuring devices with the pulses in the fuel lines between ignition cycles etc. All in all, except for the excitement of new technologies and racing styles, 2014 could well be mundane engine-wise.