Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[OO7]

Wazari, what do you know about the parallel programs; ie. smaller compressor in the V-valley or the bigger compressor outside? AFAIK there were two separate development paths, but when and how did the finalized version win? How was/is their development potential? Or are they going to track test both concepts? What happened to their plans where they wanted to bolt an engine into a Super Formula car for realistic testing purposes?

Many people seem to assume that manufacturers should be emulating Mercedes with there split turbo and compressor outside of the Vee, the manufacturers seem to disagree.

Some of the reasons why other manufacturers haven't emulated Mercedes, may be found in the following article: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/analy ... pt-672435/

[FW17]

Mr. Bence, I don't know if I fully understand your question. From my understanding, having the compressor outside the "vee" was never a consideration once the packaging requirements from McLaren were disclosed. Development potential? Track test both concepts? I don't know what you mean by development potential and there is only one design of the PU??

I don't think Honda ever had plans to fit their F1 PU into a Super Formula car. I think that was all a "what if" conjured up by some media people. I don't know if the FIA would allow that.

Wazari,

I don't think McLaren in any form suggested that Honda put the compressor within the V of the engine.

[Brian Coat]

From my understanding, having the compressor outside the "vee" was never a consideration once the packaging requirements from McLaren were disclosed.

Wazari, I don't think McLaren in any form suggested that Honda put the compressor within the V of the engine.

I don't think Wazari said that.

[GoranF1]

The jurnalist Mark Hughes seems to also be a member of Autosport forums....here is some quotes of him after being criticized about his latest article.

Hi Skaffen, 'Turbo' comprises turbine + compressor. Honda is increasing the size of both turbine and compressor, but is more limited with the compressor than with the turbine by the engine architecture.

Quickshifter.

Re this bit of your post: "I just believe journalists are having a field day talking about the sizing of components where the real challenge is getting the energy transfer to be a lot more efficient."

No, it's more subtle than that. With these engines it's one and the same thing - as is controlling the knock in the combustion chamber. The sizing of the components is directly related to how efficient the energy transfer can be made - which is the premise my whole piece was based upon. If the transfer cannot be made very efficient, the optimum sizing of turbo is smaller. The better the energy transfer efficiency, the bigger the optimum size of turbo. Likewise, the more knock resistance you can achieve in the combustion chamber, the more energy you can release from the fuel and the optimum size of the turbo increases. The whole thing is one big loop.

[GoranF1]

Wazari

There are rumors relating to those Honda bringing 8 PU to testing, saying they have at least 2 different (size,position TC?) spec to test?

[bauc]

Wazari

There are rumors relating to those Honda bringing 8 PU to testing, saying they have at least 2 different (size,position TC?) spec to test.

IRC last year they also had 2 different specs ,and also what we know is that Honda likes to take the hole PU back to factory after a day of running in the car regardless if it worked good or broke so 8 engines are not really a surprise for me (if the speculation is true)

[Bence]

Thanks Wazari & guys. My question initiated with the rumor that a rogue faction of Honda F1 engineers wanted to try an entirely different architecture.

And of course my question was targeted to these both specs, from the possible development potential point of view.

[Wazari]

Wazari,

I don't think McLaren in any form suggested that Honda put the compressor within the V of the engine.

That was Honda's design and decision based on the size restrictions dictated by the bodywork specs from McLaren. Frankly, I don't know where else you would have place the compressor based on the space given.

[Wazari]

Wazari

There are rumors relating to those Honda bringing 8 PU to testing, saying they have at least 2 different (size,position TC?) spec to test?

I have not heard about how many engines they are bringing to testing. I did understand that they were testing 6 different combinations (2 turbines and 3 compressor). I have not heard anything about how many they are bringing to Barcelona nor anything about changes in position of the components.

[FW17]

Wazari,

I don't think McLaren in any form suggested that Honda put the compressor within the V of the engine.

That was Honda's design and decision based on the size restrictions dictated by the bodywork specs from McLaren. Frankly, I don't know where else you would have place the compressor based on the space given.

Again the minimum envelop for an engine would have been provided by Honda and not Mclaren.

Honda has the chance to correct the mistake over this winter freeing up the space in the V for a better manifold and better overall layout. Rather than wasting resources trying to prove that the mistake was the the right way to go.

[PABLOEING]

Weeks ago...red bull seems impresive about Honda engine 2016.....and said that the sakura Factory is amazing and the plans about V6 engine are awesome.

[bauc]

Wazari,

I don't think McLaren in any form suggested that Honda put the compressor within the V of the engine.

That was Honda's design and decision based on the size restrictions dictated by the bodywork specs from McLaren. Frankly, I don't know where else you would have place the compressor based on the space given.

Again the minimum envelop for an engine would have been provided by Honda and not Mclaren.

Honda has the chance to correct the mistake over this winter freeing up the space in the V for a better manifold and better overall layout. Rather than wasting resources trying to prove that the mistake was the the right way to go.

There were numerous interviews with Arai, where he stated that they (Honda) collaborated with Mclaren at the very beginning of the design process.

"In the early stages of development, so 2013/2014, we discussed about that – whether to go into conservative direction, or be more challenging.

"Finally we decided we should go for more of a big challenge, because if we chose the conservative layout, I think that there would no improvement and no big step up, and also no gain for the chassis side. We decided – both of us, McLaren and Honda."

[Lucky]

That was Honda's design and decision based on the size restrictions dictated by the bodywork specs from McLaren. Frankly, I don't know where else you would have place the compressor based on the space given.

Arai:

Q: Some analysts say that the technological troubles you encountered stemmed from McLaren's "size zero" concept, which called for an extremely small power unit. Do you intend to make any size changes in 2016?
A: No. F1 cars cannot go fast without proper consideration given to air resistance and the way suspensions move. It's important to minimize the size of power units so that they don't interfere with the car's design. ... McLaren once told us that we don't have to be aggressive in downsizing our power unit. But we are determined to shrink the size by whatever means possible.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Compani ... ear?page=2

[FW17]

When dealing with clients I look real bad if I over commit and under deliver. I always do it the other way around.

[godlameroso]

It's a matter of experience, these engines aren't simply turbocharged engines, the energy recovery systems force you to forget everything you know, and basically start at zero. You cannot treat these power units in the normal sense, the thinking has to be in how do you extract the maximum from the MGU-H, as in how do you recover the maximum from the exhaust. I've said it before, you may be down 30-40hp but if you gain 160 as a result(ie longer deployment) then it's worth it.

To be honest if I were starting out in this formula, I'd be better served studying this than any past f1 engine.