Delta wing car concept

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Delta wing car concept

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machin wrote:
countersteer wrote:See previous post... the rear tires are said to be the front tires off of a Indy Lights car. Do we know the overall width of this thing?
Indeed, that was my post ( :wink: )...

I think its safe to say that a car with "normal" weight distribution and equal size/weight would have narrower rear tyres than Deltawing, but obviously wider fronts by virtue of that weight distribution... don't you think?
would the front wheels affect diffuser performance?


Andy, I think this simple simulation shows the point you were making nicely; the Deltawing's central front wheels create "dirty" air in the diffuser, whereas the rectangular car's diffuser gets clean air...

Image
Somebody has the Wind Tunnel Pro Ipad app :D
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Scania
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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1 of the advantage of DW even same drag same weight, is you can always late brake easily(or you can said it have "no" late brake

on normal car, you need to control the speed & won't let the front or rear wheel lock up or it will be lose time or lose control. however, on DW, hard brake is dosen't matter (yes, you will hurt you rear tire, but u won't lose time or grid at that moment (qualify & wheel to wheel battle), you so you can brake later then the same weight 口car, event you wont brake too hard & lock up the rear tire, your brake point is still later.

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machin
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Scania wrote:1 of the advantage of DW even same drag same weight, is you can always late brake easily(or you can said it have "no" late brake
Given the same weight and downforce can you explain in terms of vertical load on the tyres and tyre grip coefficient why you think the straight-line braking performance of a Delta shaped car will be any better than a rectangular car?
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Scania
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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machin wrote:
Scania wrote:1 of the advantage of DW even same drag same weight, is you can always late brake easily(or you can said it have "no" late brake
Given the same weight and downforce can you explain in terms of vertical load on the tyres and tyre grip coefficient why you think the straight-line braking performance of a Delta shaped car will be any better than a rectangular car?
when you try to hard brake, the front wheel are rolling with highest friction, but if you turn @ this moment, the friction would drop since the rolling direction was change, and your front wheel will lock up & understeer. this mean you need to look out the speed and brake force @ the same time even you are slow enough to turn in.

on DW, the front wheel won't lock, so you can brake hard & late recklessly, if your speed a able to turn, so you can turn, the front wheel would never lock up & spint u out.

rjsa
rjsa
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Scania wrote: when you try to hard brake, the front wheel are rolling with highest friction, but if you turn @ this moment, the friction would drop since the rolling direction was change, and your front wheel will lock up & understeer. this mean you need to look out the speed and brake force @ the same time even you are slow enough to turn in.

on DW, the front wheel won't lock, so you can brake hard & late recklessly, if your speed a able to turn, so you can turn, the front wheel would never lock up & spint u out.
Have you considered that if you lock the rear wheels with the front ones turned you will spin?

Scania
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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rjsa wrote:
Scania wrote: when you try to hard brake, the front wheel are rolling with highest friction, but if you turn @ this moment, the friction would drop since the rolling direction was change, and your front wheel will lock up & understeer. this mean you need to look out the speed and brake force @ the same time even you are slow enough to turn in.

on DW, the front wheel won't lock, so you can brake hard & late recklessly, if your speed a able to turn, so you can turn, the front wheel would never lock up & spint u out.
Have you considered that if you lock the rear wheels with the front ones turned you will spin?
"it dosen't matter even the real wheel lock" it said by the driver

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machin
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Scania wrote:on DW, the front wheel won't lock, so you can brake hard & late recklessly, if your speed a able to turn, so you can turn, the front wheel would never lock up & spint u out.
Its true that the small amount of load transfer at the front means that the locking limit of the fronts is higher on Deltawing... however the load transfer that you 'avoid' at the front has to be catered for somewhere; at the rear, therefore the locking limit of the rears reduces... so there's no overall gain in braking performance... And this increase in front locking limit doesn't mean you have more grip available for turning the car because it doesn't matter what wheel layout or weight distribution you have; in order to extract maximum braking performance from a vehicle both inside wheels need to be just on the edge of locking up... if any of the wheels aren't on the edge of locking up then you're simply not using all the braking ability that the tyres have... this applies to the Deltawing layout just as it does a rectangular car...
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Jersey Tom
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Whether you lock the fronts first and plow, or the rears first and spin, is a choice made by how much brake balance the driver and/or engineers select. Has nothing to do with "conventional" or "Delta wing" layout.

There's some argument made that the Delta wing is inherently stable under the brakes.. something to the effect of the majority of longitudinal forces coming from the rear (on weight bias alone) and creating a stabilizing yaw moment.

However what they conveniently choose to ignore is the fact that longitudinal forces under braking contribute so little to the yaw moment of the car and is completely blown away by the lateral forces.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

rjsa
rjsa
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Scania wrote: "it dosen't matter even the real wheel lock" it said by the driver

I'm sorry but I don't understand what is written here.

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Delta wing car concept

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rjsa wrote:
Scania wrote: "it dosen't matter even the real wheel lock" it said by the driver

I'm sorry but I don't understand what is written here.
HaHa I guess my life spent in the American Southeast helps here, but, what he's saying is: The driver said:"It doesn't matter, even if the rear wheel locks"(apparently implying that the car remains stable even if the rear wheels lock)

I'm not agreeing only interpreting.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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machin
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Jersey Tom wrote:Whether you lock the fronts first and plow, or the rears first and spin, is a choice made by how much brake balance the driver and/or engineers select. Has nothing to do with "conventional" or "Delta wing" layout.
That's it... and combine this with the fact that:
Machin wrote:in order to extract maximum braking performance from a vehicle both inside wheels need to be just on the edge of locking up
means the driver sets the brake bias so that both ends of the car are just on the limit of locking, with a small bias towards the front because locking the front is the more stable condition (understeer) than locking the rears (oversteer).... so the Deltawing will still lock its fronts first once the drivers try and extract maximum performance from it.
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Pierce89
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Scania wrote:1 of the advantage of DW even same drag same weight, is you can always late brake easily(or you can said it have "no" late brake

on normal car, you need to control the speed & won't let the front or rear wheel lock up or it will be lose time or lose control. however, on DW, hard brake is dosen't matter (yes, you will hurt you rear tire, but u won't lose time or grid at that moment (qualify & wheel to wheel battle), you so you can brake later then the same weight 口car, event you wont brake too hard & lock up the rear tire, your brake point is still later.
Now this, even I can't understand. Care to expound?
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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andylaurence
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Joined: 19 Jul 2011, 15:35

Re: Delta wing car concept

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@machin - I don't understand how your theory that reduced load transfer increasing the grip on the front tyres under braking being offset by the increased load of the rear reducing their grip works with your statement earlier that the Deltawing is not as good because it has greater lateral load transfer. How is it different?

I have to say I'm in agreement about the braking stability, but I think it's got nothing to do with the layout of the wheels. It's about weight distribution. With more weight at the rear, the rear tyres will contribute to more of the braking effort. In any normal car, the front tyres provide most of the braking effort, which makes the car unstable. If the rear tyres provide most of the braking effort, then if all four wheels lock up, the car will have a tendency to straighten up under braking, feeling more stable. That, I think, is the point being made about braking stability.

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machin
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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andylaurence wrote:@machin - I don't understand how your theory that reduced load transfer increasing the grip on the front tyres under braking being offset by the increased load of the rear reducing their grip works with your statement earlier that the Deltawing is not as good because it has greater lateral load transfer. How is it different?
Given equal weight, CG height, width etc the two cars should have the same TOTAL lateral load transfer... The Deltawing has less lateral transfer at the front (a good thing; not only do you get more grip when loads are shared equally between tyres by virtue of the shape of the grip curve, but also because the braking performance of each end of the car is determined by the most lightly loaded tyre, the inside tyre, the point at which locking occurs will be higher if load transfer can be reduced). The problem with the Delta wing is that more load transfer occurs at the rear than a equally sized rectangular car; again, by virtue of the shape of a tyres grip curve this means less grip and also means the inside rear tyre is even more lightly loaded than a similar sized rectangular car where the load transfer is shared, so will lockup easier.

Now throw a constant radius corner into the mix... the front has more grip so theoretically could go round the corner faster... but the rear has LESS grip.. so it breaks away sooner... the car has to go round at the limit set by the 'weakest' end of the car; in the Deltawing's case; the rear.
If the rear tyres provide most of the braking effort, then if all four wheels lock up, the car will have a tendency to straighten up under braking, feeling more stable. That, I think, is the point being made about braking stability.
The problem is you always get one tyre locking first by virtue of slightly different loads on all four tyres.... you never want a rear to lock first because that results in spinning... so you bias the brakes slightly forward so that one of the fronts lock first (ideally none of them should be locked of course!).
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Scania
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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in other forum, someone said they count the time of DW by stop watch-- it is about 1:50-52 in sebring