2023 car comparison thread

[vorticism]

If it wasn't flexing they wouldn't be designing F1 cars, I'll say that much.

[Vanja #66]

A question about graphic, the part marked as "peak downforce" and illustrated by the blue zone, is thst not peak vacuum in venturi position with downforce being enacted by the roof of the tunnel upstream of that location ?

Doesn't the vacuum need surface area to impose load (negative) on the structure rather than that narrow band ?

Thank you.

The intensity of the suction zone and the distribution of pressure depends on the profile geometry and ride height. On the other hand, the visual distribution depends on how the colour bar scale is set. If the bottom limit in that example is set at Cp -1, there'd be a whole lot more blue. If it was set at say -4, it would literally be a line.

The amount of movement here is small imo.

Trailing edge drops 20mm, easy. Could be 25mm even. Bigger wing would have bigger movement.

[ValeVida46]

So, rear wings don't flex any more?

https://i.ibb.co/hfrjXQ7/jeddah-2023-williams-flex.jpg

Just as a reminder, camera is fixed on the chassis, so the suspension movement under braking is observed with rear tyre movement (also marked)

The new Merc rear wing flexes quite noticeably. Definitely part of their lower drag philosophy.

Is there video of this? Trying to find on Youtube and coming up blank.

[AR3-GP]

A question about graphic, the part marked as "peak downforce" and illustrated by the blue zone, is thst not peak vacuum in venturi position with downforce being enacted by the roof of the tunnel upstream of that location ?

Doesn't the vacuum need surface area to impose load (negative) on the structure rather than that narrow band ?

Thank you.

The intensity of the suction zone and the distribution of pressure depends on the profile geometry and ride height. On the other hand, the visual distribution depends on how the colour bar scale is set. If the bottom limit in that example is set at Cp -1, there'd be a whole lot more blue. If it was set at say -4, it would literally be a line.

The amount of movement here is small imo.

Trailing edge drops 20mm, easy. Could be 25mm even. Bigger wing would have bigger movement.

There was a big storm about this in 2021 which shows that the teams do police one another if there is a significant benefit. So I'm not convinced this is as big of a deal as before.

[vorticism]

From Jeddah:

[KimiRai]

[PlatinumZealot]

They copied it half-way with the W13 upgrade.

[PlatinumZealot]

That's why Alonso says the Alpine is the most similar car to his AMR 23.

Also shows that having similar shapes on top of the car is not enough. They all must work together and the floor is the big area you must get right.

[Goblin42]

I mean yeah they copied the RB floor center bumps for the W13, are they carried over to the W14 we don't know unless someone flips a car this weekend


W13 floor at the Japanese GP

[Stu]

I mean yeah they copied the RB floor center bumps for the W13, are they carried over to the W14 we don't know unless someone flips a car this weekend

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhussQSXwAE ... me=900x900
W13 floor at the Japanese GP
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FhusqIrX0AA ... =4096x4096

Great pics! That clearly shows increased complexity in the floor profile. Interesting that it shows (proves?) that the extent to which they could change everything around the limiting factor of radiator location (the crease line is visible in both); it also shows how they ‘backed off’ on the diffuser throat/entry, reducing the effectiveness/sensitivity of the floor.

[tok-tokkie]

It seems to me that the RB venturi is more 3D than the Merc.

The RB in plan has nice venturi. In section it also has a venturi but it does not descend really close to the ground.

The Merc has a nice venturi in plan. In section it has very little venturi profile. So to get the same contraction ratio the roof is much closer to the ground throughout its length. That was why their venturi chocked - the whole venturi was 2D and its ratio was more affected by changes in height. RB was less affected because the 3D venturi's ratio did not vary to the same extent as the Merc with changes in height.

[mkay]

Interesting article from Formu1a.uno, claiming that AMF1 is hampered by Mercedes' rear end components, namely the pull-rod suspension and the gearbox, both of which have cost AMF1 diffuser performance and forcing AMF1 to slap on a bigger rear wing to compensate. Because Merc's rear elements are bulkier, they require more space around the floor area and therefore reduce airflow reaching the diffuser.

Wonder whether we'll see Merc change gearbox/suspension philosophy next season if this is true.

https://www.formu1a.uno/en/how-the-merc ... on-martin/

In terms of transmission, there are very important differences between the Red Bull and Mercedes specifications.

The Mercedes specification is bulkier in the area closest to the floor, which limits airflow through the AMR23’s diffuser. This area is designed for a car with ultra-compact bodywork like the W14, as seen with the Mercedes ‘zeropods.’

Having a less efficient diffuser means the AMR23 needs more rear wing to compensate, which generates more drag.

This compact size is also made possible by the team’s use of the rear push-rod layout.

As such, the internal part of the suspension has been moved much higher – compared to the classic pull rod used instead by Mercedes, and therefore Aston Martin, which has them in the lower part.

[e30ernest]

Interesting article from Formu1a.uno, claiming that AMF1 is hampered by Mercedes' rear end components, namely the pull-rod suspension and the gearbox, both of which have cost AMF1 diffuser performance and forcing AMF1 to slap on a bigger rear wing to compensate. Because Merc's rear elements are bulkier, they require more space around the floor area and therefore reduce airflow reaching the diffuser.

Wonder whether we'll see Merc change gearbox/suspension philosophy next season if this is true.

https://www.formu1a.uno/en/how-the-merc ... on-martin/

In terms of transmission, there are very important differences between the Red Bull and Mercedes specifications.

The Mercedes specification is bulkier in the area closest to the floor, which limits airflow through the AMR23’s diffuser. This area is designed for a car with ultra-compact bodywork like the W14, as seen with the Mercedes ‘zeropods.’

Having a less efficient diffuser means the AMR23 needs more rear wing to compensate, which generates more drag.

This compact size is also made possible by the team’s use of the rear push-rod layout.

As such, the internal part of the suspension has been moved much higher – compared to the classic pull rod used instead by Mercedes, and therefore Aston Martin, which has them in the lower part.

The transmission casing and suspension mounting points are modular right? If so, is it possible for Mercedes to change rear suspension or is the suspension itself homologated for the season?

[atanatizante]

I noticed something about the floors of the RB18 and the W13 last year.
The venturi under the RB18 floor has it's narrow area further downstream. I do not know if this was addressed with W14.
Also redbull have more generous volume under the floor because the venturi is gentler.
As the venturi ends, the diffuser starts. So very aggressive expansion at the rear diffuser relative to the front of the floor.
On the other hand Mercedes with their first floor iteration of the ground effect rules, have a more symetrical floor front to rear, but this may be where it loses out. Lower, more restrictive underfloor volume and the centre of pressure is more forward. There is more of a delay downstream of the lowest point of the venturi before the rear diffuser.

Additionally, the expansion between front center vane and centre floor wall under the RB18 also have more volume, and has a less tight expansion rate compared to W13. Note the blue line and arrows. W13 vanes are closer together and expansion rate is "tighter" as you downstream.
RBR could also be create a little nozzle jet stream with the two converging outer vanes to influence the flow at the edge of the floor downstream.
https://i.ibb.co/N9SWkrn/W13-VSRB18.png

But yes, the main and fundamental difference is the tunnel volume and the venacontracta of the floor. Redbull delays the venacontracta further downstream, then rapidly expands again into the rear diffuser.

W14 is more balance, but this results in a less volume under the car upstream the venacontra point, and can explain why it is more sensitive to ride. The RB has a better buffer due to its distribution of underfloor volume. It prioritizes the intake volume expansion over the rear, which is the outlet volumetric expansion. As to why this is done, I do not know. I am just pointing out my observations.

There are also mini diffusers between two planes of the floor "T", ie plank plane and tunnel roof. Indicating that the reference plane is playing some role in the ground effect as well for RBR.

In conclusion mercedes could investigate this if they haven't already. It makes more sense to me why RBR has the floor cut out where it is. The upper outwash and the rear biased venacontracta are linked.


https://f1i.autojournal.fr/wp-content/u ... _w13_5.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FT3w6SFWYAA ... ame=medium

Do you think that RB18`s floor was targeting not for inconstant, unpredictable peak downforce as W13 had but rather for a lower one which was more constant and predictable?

And in order to compensate for the downforce loss from the floor they focused on diffuser to produce more of it, by running it harder through increasing expansion of it by designing rounded upper corner diffuser edges and by running a pull road rear suspension heading for unobstructed clean airflow at the back of the car? And last, but not least for having a vertical slit at the end of the diffuser vertical fence, if I`m not wrong ...

With this year's modified floor rules, it seems that the RB19 car is running as low as possible (as the W13 car did last year) in order to compensate for the downforce loss and it`d be interesting to know how they`re able to run it so low that sparks in qualy trim but didn`t have this kind of issue ones the car is in race trim ...

[continuum16]

Amazing to me just how different the front suspension geometry is between the Alpine and Aston in that pic.