Mercedes W13

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continuum16
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Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 17:35
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Re: Mercedes W13

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 18:51
continuum16 wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 17:11
PlatinumZealot wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 14:16


Zero side pods already ruled out by George Russell. He said they had porpoising on the shakedown lap when they had the conventional side pods.
I'd be interesting to know what, if any, differences there are in the bouncing characteristics between the original and current spec. The fact that the level of bouncing seems to be different for every track (Imola was probably the worst so far with lifting on the straights, or at least was not any improvement on previous races) to me seems to indicate that Mercedes either does not know how to reduce the bouncing across a range of setups, or (probably closer to the truth) they know but their current hardware (be it suspension/aero/etc.) prevents them from doing so.

Every car has bouncing to some extent, the most limiting factor is arguably how early does it happen? 240 kph? 280kph? It is well known that a main component as to why Ferrari is able to cope with it is because it happens at a relatively high speed.

Perhaps the bouncing is onset at a higher speed with the original configuration, but the track to track variation means they can probably not be sure if it is down to the inherent car characteristics or the track/setup. Barcelona will be the real test, and Mercedes themselves have stated that they will be looking at the differences between the current car and the one from testing. Absolute worst case scenario for the team would be a 2019-Haas like reversion to the original spec. I'm sure that would probably be the nuclear option, and would require them to see that the original car from testing would be much better. Chances of this happening are likely very low, albeit non-zero.
The only way the side pod can influence bouncing is how it influences the pressure at the entrance, side and rear of the floor right, whether through the air dam at the front, the outwash at the sides the downwash and wake at the back.

The resepctive differences of these between the different type of side pod are relatively small or even negligble when you compare the effect of flow structures around like sealing vortices, the strakes, and the shape of the floor itself.

It's like someone telling you that if you use a bigger umbrella you wont get wet in a hurricane basically. Which is just incorrect because the magnitude of the sheltering is nothing compared to the amount of rain and force of wind.

I am not an aero guy but the magnitudes of the different effects (side pod wake and the floor devices) are orders different in size to aero effecta that happen near the floor (if the area underneath the floor if what we are focusing on).

So in my own deduction I will say the side pod hypothesis is not it. I expect Mercedes to have a new floor in Miami maybe some front wing tweaks. I would be fun to be proven wrong though.
I agree the sidepods are probably not the fundamental problem, they are just the most visually striking part of the revised version of the car that appeared in Bahrain. They also brought a number of other changes, including a completely revised floor and front wing (remember the original "lasagna" floor, for example). Because the difference in airflow characteristics between the two packages is strong, it's probably not as simple as being able to "mix and match" components. I still think we will only know in Spain whether things are trending in the right direction, competitively at least.
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AA_2019
AA_2019
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Joined: 02 Apr 2022, 12:53

Re: Mercedes W13

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ9-9RlWUAY ... me=900x900

This Ferrari floor seems easier for Merc to copy than the Redbull one

Wonder what the Merc aero guys are thinking when they saw this :?:
One day AI might be able to fix the W13 zero pod concept !

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AA_2019 wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 19:38
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ9-9RlWUAY ... me=900x900

This Ferrari floor seems easier for Merc to copy than the Redbull one

Wonder what the Merc aero guys are thinking when they saw this :?:
That copying someone else's floor isn't the way out.
A lion must kill its prey.

cplchanb
cplchanb
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AR3-GP wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 19:49
AA_2019 wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 19:38
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ9-9RlWUAY ... me=900x900

This Ferrari floor seems easier for Merc to copy than the Redbull one

Wonder what the Merc aero guys are thinking when they saw this :?:
That copying someone else's floor isn't the way out.
Toyota F1 engineers would heavily agree with that sentiment lol :lol:

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AA_2019 wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 19:38
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ9-9RlWUAY ... me=900x900

This Ferrari floor seems easier for Merc to copy than the Redbull one

Wonder what the Merc aero guys are thinking when they saw this :?:
Their spies very likely took photos from winter testing! The ban on the screens gives the perfect chance to get a low shot when the car is on stands.
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AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Mercedes W13

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
29 Apr 2022, 01:01
AA_2019 wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 19:38
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQ9-9RlWUAY ... me=900x900

This Ferrari floor seems easier for Merc to copy than the Redbull one

Wonder what the Merc aero guys are thinking when they saw this :?:
Their spies very likely took photos from winter testing! The ban on the screens gives the perfect chance to get a low shot when the car is on stands.
Right but the problem is Merc believe in their concept more than others. The Merc floor works with the Merc sidepods. They can't just strap on somebody else's floor without also running the other team's sidepods.
A lion must kill its prey.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes W13

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Many a times floors have been copied and adopted. It would never be a carbon copy but the concepts than be translated.

2009 RedBull and McLaren double diffuser
Floor gills
Floor curls
The Z-cut
Etc.

Ferrari now have the RedBull ice skate thingy on their floor.
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KeiKo403
KeiKo403
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Vaexa wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 15:59
Surprised to see this tweet has not yet been posted here, unless I'm absolutely blind:



DeepL translation:
Mercedes has cancelled all planned developments, which has suspended the production of new parts, but they should be able to anticipate something for Miami before the decisive package in Barcelona.
It's a difficult one to interpret and I'm not a native Italian speaker, but as I understand it the ''planned developments'' refers to the timeline of parts teams usually have at the start of a season and not to any and all developments coming to W13, although I would happily be corrected by a native speaker.

See also this tweet in the replies to the original:

I imagine the original updates were the ones planned prior to testing starting. Since then they've obviously got correlation issues and it isn't just finding the correct setup window. Seems to be too logical to suspend those originally planned upgrades (to make a fast car faster) and work on making the slow car as fast as they think it should've been to start with.

Unless they made a break through around the Iola weekend and realised their planned fixes weren't going to get the job done either and now have a better way forward? I guess we'll find out soon enough.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Isn't that old news?
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johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Mercedes W13

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At least someone might be able to get a cheap W13 in years to come

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Mercedes W13

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johnny comelately wrote:
29 Apr 2022, 15:01
At least someone might be able to get a cheap W13 in years to come
Usually with Mercedes it seems to be the one that was not wanted at the time is the most sought after in later years.
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johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Big Tea wrote:
29 Apr 2022, 15:05
johnny comelately wrote:
29 Apr 2022, 15:01
At least someone might be able to get a cheap W13 in years to come
Usually with Mercedes it seems to be the one that was not wanted at the time is the most sought after in later years.
Rarer :roll: :wink:

motosubatsu
motosubatsu
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Joined: 28 Apr 2022, 12:41

Re: Mercedes W13

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Big Tea wrote:
29 Apr 2022, 15:05
johnny comelately wrote:
29 Apr 2022, 15:01
At least someone might be able to get a cheap W13 in years to come
Usually with Mercedes it seems to be the one that was not wanted at the time is the most sought after in later years.
Which is probably why SLRs are still £200k+

I've always quietly been hoping that the fact that they weren't especially popular at release coupled with the eye-watering running costs might cause their values to crater to something resembling affordability, or at the very least into the man-maths range.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Mercedes W13

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13 is an unlucky number. M13 Power unit. W13 chassis.
A lion must kill its prey.

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Stu
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AR3-GP wrote:
29 Apr 2022, 19:27
13 is an unlucky number. M13 Power unit. W13 chassis.
That all depends on where you come from.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.