Delta wing car concept

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machin
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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So, I went to the Pistonheads Sunday Service today and attended the talk by Ben Bowlby on the Deltawing. I recorded the whole thing and have transferred to text here; the questions were made by a combination of Tony Jardine and members of the audience, including me. They were in a slightly different order, but I've tried to order them to make them flow a bit better, there were others but these were the most interesting:-
Q: You’re working with some big names; what do they hope to gain from it?
Ben Bowlby:Its an extraordinary opportunity to challenge things and determine exactly what we can do in terms of efficiency whilst still maintaining performance.
Its a massive honour, really its a genius from the ACO to have an experimental class. I think what the Deltwaing does is quite significant; its an ultra light-weight car made from advanced materials; its the real deal; it actually can do the improvement in efficiency whilst maintaining the same performance, an electric car can’t do that at the moment. For that reason, the ACO chose us.
Q: You aren’t elligable for the win, but you will certainly have a lot of attention at Le Mans; its a very dramatic looking vehicle....
It does look like the Batmobile, but this IS a real project; its not a marketing exercise; This is the absolute most efficient vehicle to do an LMP1 lap time that we could come up, I’m sure there are cleverer people out there that would come up with a better way of doing it; but we’ve done the calcs and our simulations show this configuration is the fastest car that we were able to simulate that could do the performance we needed and burn about half the fuel of a petrol LMP1 car.
Q: Those simulations were around Le Mans, I guess, but around a circuit like Brands Hatch Indy (which is slower and twistier) do you think it would still be the best configuration, or do you think a ground effects rectangular shaped car would be better?
Urrrmmm... I think it could take on anything... its a tricky question... what’s the parameters? If you are looking at fuel consumption being the denominator of performance I think we could take on anybody no matter what format....We have greater efficiency... its going to have to be a two wheel drive car because although 4 wheel drive (there’s going to be no rules right?) 4 wheel drive is very high performance but also higher weight, so you’d go with 2WD and then you want the weight over the driven wheels. The aerodynamics, the mass, and the tyre sizes need to be in harmony with each other, once you have that you basically have a car that behaves like a normal racing car.
We did some sims with 500bhp to see what it would do... and.... it was very fast!
Q: Did you ever think about making it 3 wheels?
At one point I thought ‘yeah we’ll make it a 3 wheeler’, but a 3-wheeler isn’t a car under the the FIA definition; its a motorcycle, so what we did was put the front two wheels close together so that they act as one. We looked at racing sidecars to see what technology they’re using for steering and things like that, in fact we built a 3 wheeled radio control model to test the concept, and actually the model behaved exactly like the real thing. That was in the pre-budget; it was my own money!
Q: Its basically a mid-engined Reliant Robin isn’t it?
It is! A Reliant Robin with the mass in the right place!
Q: Does the Delta configuration make the rectangular configuration obsolete?
I don’ think so, no.... but I do think its important that the motorsport industry has a wide spread of projects; look at what Nissan are doing with the Leaf, I think its good to promote efficiency.
Q: You are in the experimental class; You are not expected to finish the race
Our expectation is that we have done enough work to finish the race, but the reality is that we probably won’t. We’re having to temper our hopes; If you were going to win Le Mans you would have probably 2 years of testing with multiple 30 hour tests, we’ve done 25 laps in succession so far without hitting a problem; Its a tough challenge; the problems haven’t been the things we thought we’d have a problem with, its the things we were certain would be OK. But each time we test we go a little faster and get a little more reliable.
Q: Under race conditions what does the engine do MPG wise?
On the dyno it does 230g/kWhr... there is virtually no petrol road car that makes horsepower at that small a fuel burn... on the race track it equates to around 12 miles per UK Gallon; it doesn’t sound that good but that is actually an impressive number; about double what the petrol LMP1 cars will get.
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RacingManiac
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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This might have been from RCE. I found it in a collection of Mark Ortiz's article online...He usually writes "The Consultant" on RCE:

http://www.eviltwinmotorsports.com/wp/w ... 011.10.pdf

Its specifically on Delta Wing and its relevance(or lack thereof)....

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machin
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Just noticed from another thread that the Le Mans practice times are in:- The Deltawing putting in a time that is 6 seconds off the pace of the leading LMP2 car... now I know that the Deltawing is a new car and the LMP2's have had a fair amount of development, but on the raw stats alone (ignoring the wheel-layout side of things) you'd think that it should be faster:-

The Deltawing has: More power to weight, More power to drag and more downforce to weight.... it will be interesting to see if in the course of the next few weeks they can re-dress this balance... maybe LMP2 vs. Deltawing is going to be the main point of interest in the race...?

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Last edited by machin on 10 Jun 2012, 11:59, edited 1 time in total.
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machin
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Autosport this week have a short article on the Deltawing; apparently they're not running with the Torque Vectoring Diff anymore due to lack of development time. I think this is a good thing because this technology would also benefit the rectangular cars, so running it on Deltawing would potentially mask the actual differences between the delta and rectangular wheel layouts.
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marcush.
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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machin wrote:Autosport this week have a short article on the Deltawing; apparently they're not running with the Torque Vectoring Diff anymore due to lack of development time. I think this is a good thing because this technology would also benefit the rectangular cars, so running it on Deltawing would potentially mask the actual differences between the delta and rectangular wheel layouts.
Bowlby and Jim Hamilton were emphasising the importance of the torque vectoring diff for the concept to work ....so why not using it?

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machin
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I didn't think that was the case and I found this on autoweek;
The differential has capacity for vectoring torque to either wheel
(or for remaining open), but the car is stable without that torque
vectoring.
“Our intention is to make the tuning of the car's balance driver-
adjustable,” Bowlby said. “That's a slightly lofty goal at the
moment, but all of our simulations have been done without
torque vectoring.”
full article here; http://www.autoweek.com/article/2012030 ... =mobileart

Can you provide a link where they say contray to this?
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Scania
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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machin wrote:Autosport this week have a short article on the Deltawing; apparently they're not running with the Torque Vectoring Diff anymore due to lack of development time. I think this is a good thing because this technology would also benefit the rectangular cars, so running it on Deltawing would potentially mask the actual differences between the delta and rectangular wheel layouts.
from the Highcroft FB, they said that they didn't climb the kerb, they didn't chase the lap time, the fuel tank is always more than half, and using the same tires in 2 days. so I think they should be faster then what we see

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FW17
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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That is a small engine they have in there

[youtube]www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew1RKXOuSxY[/youtube]

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machin
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Scania wrote: they didn't climb the kerb, they didn't chase the lap time, the fuel tank is always more than half, and using the same tires in 2 days. so I think they should be faster then what we see
I think so too; With 20% more power per ton, 47% more power to drag, and 50% more downforce per ton it should be way quicker than LMP2....
Last edited by machin on 10 Jun 2012, 12:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Scania
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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machin wrote:
Scania wrote: they didn't climb the kerb, they didn't chase the lap time, the fuel tank is always more than half, and using the same tires in 2 days. so I think they should be faster then what we see
I think so too; With 20% more power per ton, 47% more power to drag, and 26% more downforce per ton it should be way quicker than LMP2....
but their "target Time" is 3:45, so I don't think they will going too fast, maybe 42-43, the best.
but they can gain the time in pit stop---shorter time for refill fuel & no need to change tire every time, so I still think that they can beat LMP2 if they finish the race

1 more advantage, the test drivers said that DW is so easy to drive, in a 24hr race, the focus & physical are so important, a easy drive car means they can still go fast even the drives are not in the best performance

marcush.
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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it was in the ltest issue of RCE mag methinks.
http://elcorteingles-es.zinio.com/page/ ... cat1960016

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machin
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marcush. wrote:it was in the ltest issue of RCE mag methinks.
http://elcorteingles-es.zinio.com/page/ ... cat1960016
The only quote I can find on torque vectoring says its not required:-
May issue of RE wrote:Intelligent torque vectoring as Bowlby calls it, could also be fully enabled in time for the 24-hour race but, in testing, the teams and its driver were quite pleased with the open differential currently being used
scania wrote:but their "target Time" is 3:45, so I don't think they will going too fast, maybe 42-43, the best.
Regardless of "targets", surely you've got to admit that a race car with 20% more power per ton, 47% more power to drag, and 50% more downforce per ton and yet which is still slower shows there must be a serious flaw in the design somewhere unless those figures are wrong (they've been calculated from data released by the Deltawing team)?... however, we don't know its slower yet... only time will tell....
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Scania
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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machin wrote:
marcush. wrote:it was in the ltest issue of RCE mag methinks.
http://elcorteingles-es.zinio.com/page/ ... cat1960016
The only quote I can find on torque vectoring says its not required:-
May issue of RE wrote:Intelligent torque vectoring as Bowlby calls it, could also be fully enabled in time for the 24-hour race but, in testing, the teams and its driver were quite pleased with the open differential currently being used
scania wrote:but their "target Time" is 3:45, so I don't think they will going too fast, maybe 42-43, the best.
Regardless of "targets", surely you've got to admit that a race car with 20% more power per ton, 47% more power to drag, and 26% more downforce per ton and yet which is still slower shows there must be a serious flaw in the design somewhere unless those figures are wrong (they've been calculated from data released by the Deltawing team)?... however, we don't know its slower yet... only time will tell....
and Deltawing was only built in less then 1 year from none, and no body really know how to set the car is the best, so it is not surprise to see DW can't beat LMP2 on lap time even it is so good. we need more time to learn to make it perfect.

mx_tifoso
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Scania, are you on the Delta wing race team?
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Jersey Tom
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Re: Delta wing car concept

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Scania wrote:and Deltawing was only built in less then 1 year from none, and no body really know how to set the car is the best, so it is not surprise to see DW can't beat LMP2 on lap time even it is so good. we need more time to learn to make it perfect.
An admittedly blunt observation, but you've come across as extremely defensive and lacking on objectivity with regard to the DW since Day 1.

The car has been in development for some time. Should be plenty of data with which to run plenty of sims. There's been test time. When are we going to start to be realists, here?
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