Virgin buys Wirth, joins Mclaren for technical partnership

[HampusA]

Yes LMP2 and LMP1 he seems to have done very good job Belatti.

[marcush.]

who says wirth did design the car himself? I´m not sure he did .He is the boss of a rather big company so I cannot imagine he has time to draw up a F1 car ..?

In fact i firmly believe that it´s more difficult to lead a company of considerable size in this environment to succes than it is to design a competent chassis.To me this is a straightforward job about a rulebook and its interpretation and using the best technologies you can afford to build it.Given you have worked within that environment since ,say 10+ years I´d think a lot of people can do a respectable job given the chance to go ahead and do it...the big issue will surely be to keep all the streams of activity and research in the most effective direction.

[Fil]

There seems a little confusion here due to the name of the business, and it's leader.

When people are saying Wirth, are they talking about Nick Wirth, or about Wirth Research? Some people should be a little clearer to aid in the discussion.



It is Wirth Research that has failed Virgin Racing's objectives. Nick Wirth's dismissal as TD is merely a consequence of the contract termination between the two operations.

[marcush.]

So Virgin is looking for a new technical department and Leafield (Formtech /Menard) is not for sale or available as I hear..
What about the old B3 technologies premises of John Barnard? they went into receivership 1or two years ago ..but the company must be a top notch even if it´s a bit older now.Barnards last big start up so all lessons learned from Mclaren,GTO,RTN,Benetton....this MUST be an engineers paradise.

oh forgot :Gordon murray is in there already with his EV project...

the site seems to be for rent ,at least parts of it
http://www.estatesgazette.com/propertyl ... 116318.htm

[marcush.]

timo glock is already starting to sing in the woods..

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92112

The team is done.what are they on ..you just don´t go for two years stop throw away all your development work and start from scratch at a time when you NEED to start the 2012 challenger but now you have to establish a technical base a whole fa´cility first.what a rediculous decision.

I would have gone very different and bring in my own personal and come up with a concept to be realised by Wirth Research in a first step.
In a second step I would have started to take away development areas from Wirth -first of all the aero side -as this is obviously the area were Wirth does lack and let him concentrate on trhe rest .
In a third step the Aero department would geart up to be cvapable of developping the whole car and release Wirth from the project.
I think wirth was in a weak position anyways ,the car is working and shows reliability as expected.
The 2012 season will be 2010 allover again if they are not on a USF1 trip already...

at the very least I would have started out with setting up the new technical base now AND let Nick Wirth complete the season development of the current car.
To fire him and go separte ways is clearly already compromising their 2012 campaign.

[marcush.]

Marussia and Virgin recruiting personel in Autosport ...mymy´who would want to jump on that ship....if the interest in this thread has any relevance to Virgins standing in the F1 community the only ways to bring in people is pay them considerably better than others...

[ESPImperium]

Glock is right to a point, but he needs to be paitent. However, it could be better fir huim to whissle to another team or get out of F1 now as if what im reading is right, and Sarkozy gets his way with Bullier at Renault, you could see Grosjean take over Petrovs seat there. This could be a ideal opertunity for Marussia and Petrov to be united, and the €16m that Petrov brings will bring damnd good value for Virgin id recon.

As for Autosport, heres the list of jobs avalable;

* Cheif Desigher
* Head of Composite Desigh
* Head of Mechanichal/Transmission/Hydrolic Design
* Senior Mechanichal & Composite desighers
* Mechanichal & Composite desighers
* Head of R&D
* R&D Engineers
* R&D Technicians
* Head of Relyability & Engine Liaison
* Head of Electronics & Controls
* Project Engineers
* Technichal Buyers

However, i find the advert on page 66 ironic, since the team on the side of Nick Wirth has been dreadfully mis managed.

I just hope that Virgin can find a way to make their 2012 car quick. Starting now is the best option, and if they can recruit quick enough they can be in with a chance of getting some points next year, but fear they will be in and arround where they are at present with Hispania just beating them and making Hispania look good.

I think Hispania acted quickly for next year, and have probably now got the 5 potential 2012 cars going thru CFD right now with the 2 or 3 best going to the Mercedes #2 tunnel later next month. Giving them a nice and long lead time for them to actually get a full 5000KM+ test programme and first upgrade package in the car for the start of 2012.

Virgin have acted quick but posibly noth quick enough, but feel that they could have used Wirth Research for as much as they could have gottn away with. Timo could have that right. Its what Pat Symmonds can come up with now for 2012 that matters, if he remains on the project as there is rumblings from Italy that a large team there wants him if a presedent goes to be presedent pof the country. His replacement is rumored to be wanting to take Pat Symmonds to be at base.

As for the Technichal Director, i can see this being a ideal way for Sam Michael to gain his respect and credibility back after 2 poor years at Williams.

But Virgin i feel will be all right come the start of 2012, they may just have to put the 2011 car on the track for the first test of 2012 just to give them a bit more breathing space for getting the most out of the baseline for the MVR/03.

[marcush.]

Forget this ..Gascoyne started from scratch with Fernandez but had everything in his backhand ,decided deliberately on a aged but almost ready design and just adopted the cosworth installation .
Virgin now has still no Gearboy expertise but lost their designteam for the geasrbox housing.as I understand Wirth sorted the hydraulics so again eveything in that area lost.they actually start from zero all over again. so another two years dead last in the ranking...Would Wirth research not have been a better solution short/medium term and introducing Virgin competence and taking over key areas by the team step by step be more efficient? This is really flirting with disaster.Who should design that car?

[ESPImperium]

Personally, if i were Virgin, id go to see Sir Frank and his mate Pat and Adam.

Hispania are paying $5.5m Williams Grand Prix Engineering for gearbox supply for this and next year with unlimited technichal support, and the WGPE LG14 transmission is at maximum 2 to 2.5 years old technology wise as it was designed for the Toyota RVX-09 engine in 2009 and adapted for the Cosworth CA2010 with a new case would be what id go for.

Yes it makes the car a little hamstrung in respect to suspension mounting and rear wind mounting, but this is only a small consession i think as next year Hispania could be using the 2011 Williams transmission, whitch frees up a massive ammount of air to go accross the beam wing.

Id say that for that small ammount of investment, Virgin would be stupid not to go with the Williams gearbox, considering that they are getting unlimited technichal support and gearbox supply. Team Lotus are paying Red Bull a rumored €7m and getting the 2009 box from Red Bull as Toro Rosso use the 2010 Red Bull box at present. Both those teams get unlimited support from Red Bull, both Toro Rosso and Team Lotus will use the 2011 box in 2012 seemingly.

If Virgin got a tried and tested rear end i think they would be fine, other than that im not sure what the plan would be from there.

[marcush.]

Not many options around .HRT already grabbed the old williams box and nobody else has a box on offer that fits the Cossy engine.
X-trac are surely aware of the problem their box is not an attractive package and they either stop or get serious .
Is the williams box available to another team? why not.But one thinks if you go that route then go for the new box but that won´t go for 5.5mill...
I cannot see them building a car for 2012 from scratch .They will end up modifying the current car.

[ESPImperium]

I think the Williams option is still there. Williams didnt rule out supplying another team when the Hispania deal was announced. They are in for making a profit, and a extra $5.5m will surly help them???

X-Trac is the only other option, however they will supply the same internals, but same case as what Lotus and Hispania ran last year, so the 1044 transmission is an option, but to what detrement as it is in Mike Gascogynes eyes at least 7 years out of date with a few bodges to make it more relyable.

However, its pretty easy to get a gearbox as when Lotus were looking at a new transmission last year they were looking at the Renault one to attach to the Cosworth power plant, then it came about they chose Renault engines and the red Bull transmission as it was slightly more relyable than the Renault one, and they were getting a Pull Rod optomised casing as well. But they decided to go for a slightly altered casing, so thats why their deal with Red Bull was slightly more money.

Id think that they could go to Renault, Williams or X-Trac. However there is a rumor that they are looking at Mercedes power and the McLaren rear end, with the Mercedes KERS. I think this is unlikley.

I think they will go to Williams, simply because of the compatibility of the transmission to the Cossie power plant. And if Team Lotus is going to use the Renault KERS next year, and if Hispania are getting a bespoke KERS from their sponsor come technichal partner BASE Batteries, whitch i think could be frought early on, but fruitful later on. So if i was Virgin, id be thinking about a Gearbox and KERS deal from Williams for arround $8m for the season, it would be arround 12% of the Virgin budget, but would mean that more money can be poured into the rest of the car.

[marcush.]

buying a chassis from Wirth cannot be more expensive than building a technical department and building the car.
They did not have kers in 2011 so it´s not even thinkable to introduce KERS with the sort of budget they have had in their two years ..wasn´t the Marelli Kers a 1million€ flat offer? I think williams can hardly ask more than this even when the williams kers would be a bolt in part you could spend a lot for the installation and recruiting of personel to adapt the Marelli unit which obviously is working quite satisfactory this year.

[Jersey Tom]

As for the Technichal Director, i can see this being a ideal way for Sam Michael to gain his respect and credibility back after 2 poor years at Williams.

Only under very specific conditions and likely with some luck. Absolute mountain of work to do.

One man does not a team make. Could dump Brawn or Newey or whoever in there, and they could all be --- if the conditions aren't right.

[xpensive]

What Richard Branson is getting out of this is difficult to fathom, is he a party-animal who simply enjoys the hospitality suits?

There must surely be less xpensive and embarassing ways to get laid?

[TzeiTzei]

marcush is right. I've said this before, but i can't quite understand why they cut all ties with Wirth Research. The current car has problems with the aerodynamics, so why not fix that department first? Was it too big a blow for Wirth? Get new designers to handle the aero stuff, get a wind tunnel and take advantage of the great CFD facilities Wirth Research has got. After getting the aero department sorted out, then they could be looking at Force India or Team Lotus kind of collaboration with a bigger team/manufacturer. That's what i would have done. Now they are starting from scratch.

After Wirth is gone the team has got absolutely nothing. They are pretty much in the same situation as HRT, with the expetion that HRT are already on their way of getting things running. As things haven't worked out this year, they should already be consentrating on next year's car. But right now i can't see them being much faster than this year. I'd be very suprised if Virgin isn't the slowest car in 2012.