The Nigel Mansell Effect™

[Martin Keene]

Yes but this thread isn't quite Vettel vs Webber.. it's just discussing those drivers that are seemingly up to no good, then suddenly hit a milestone and become amazing drivers.

Mansell was always quick, always drove with his heart. Indeed, that was his problem really - he was rubbish at playing the team politics game.

He was hit by lots of failures at critical times too which seemed to knock him back mentally. His WDC was truly earned in my opinion - here was a guy that put everything he owned on the line (literally - he mortgaged his house to keep racing at one point) to be a racing driver. That he won the F1 title and then the Indy title the year after was due reward.

He was a whinging bugger though...

What he said.

Everyday of the week.

[xpensive]

When he spun his Lotus out of the lead in the rain at Monaco in 1984, he xplained that with getting his wheels on the white paint.
Kinda difficult to avoid there perhaps?

[Chaparral]

if you knew anything at all about Webber's driving history, which I doubt, is when he was supposed to be Justin Wilson's closest challenger in Formula 3000 in 2001 and he fell away badly

well sorry mate I do know his history (and Justin Wilson is where these days) and Mark has 4 GP's up his sleeve and very dominent wins - sorry you lose!

[WhiteBlue]

Chaparral, you need to read this thread: How to use the quote function

Please read and use the proper citation! Same applies to Strad!

[Chaparral]

Chaparral, you need to read this thread: How to use the quote function

Please read and use the proper citation! Same applies to Strad!

Are you completely mad

[andrew]

Self appointed mod. [-X

[segedunum]

well sorry mate I do know his history (and Justin Wilson is where these days)

I don't think you do, but, well quite..... You're not proving much there. I'm afraid he still comfortably beat Mark Webber where they were title rivals and in comparable machinery nonetheless. His last four races were something of a disaster, but it is a pattern that's been repeated many times.

and Mark has 4 GP's up his sleeve and very dominent wins - sorry you lose!

In a car that can run away with races and that he's shown nothing in when he's not on pole and running away with it (something Vettel still has to prove incidentally)...... Sorry but the evidence is there in over a decade of racing, as difficult as that might be to accept.

That's why I don't see parallels with Nigel Mansell. Nigel came good comparitively late in his career, but whenever he had a decent car he showed his worth at any time. Was he as good as Prost or Senna? No, the evidence suggests that he wasn't, but he was a title challenger over many years and won races and got results from a variety of positions. I have yet to see that from Webber..........at 33. I have yet to see anything like Hungary 1989 from Webber, as a specific example. The Nurburgring last year was as close as he's got, but it's a highlight in a sea of mediocrity. His overtaking and defensive driving leaves a lot to be desired when compared to Nigel Mansell.

What's with all this 'You lose' fanboy crap? I know you're a partiotic Aussie and all who likes to tell people that they're driving experts when people talk about Webber's last two or three races and everyone else that they're fanboy experts when they start digging a beat deeper, but if this thread is to be meaingful in any way we need to stick to where Webber and Button differ or are comparable to Mansell.

[Just_a_fan]

His highest achievements were in superior cars

There are very few championship winners who win in less than superior kit. They're either in the best car or the second best one. Even the greats did the majority of their winning in decent kit.

The skill is getting into the best cars in the first place. Some of that is achieved by being obviously good early on, but some of it is just down to good management on the part of the driver and his advisors.

[Mysticf1]

segedunum you never seem to give specific examples other than F3000, which was quite early in his career...can u give some? How about Monaco (sorry dont remember the year) when his williams burst into flames...or melbourne when his willams g/box shattered into a million peices while leading...japan when Vettel rammed him up the anal...His first race coming home in 5th in a minardi, defending against a much faster car in the closing laps...Mark has shown potential many times in his career but its never come together usually due to unreliability or just plain luck...is this because of his own doing or the fact he was punching above what his car was capable of? I dont believe the last few races have changed Mark into a top driver...hes always been up there and now his machinery is allowing him to show it. U can't win races in a dominant fashion without being a top driver...maybe a lucky one...but not 4.

[gibells]

I think in this latest tangent we've gone down we pretty much fail to see the over-riding point. That is, the car.

Think Hill, Villeneuve, Button, Webber, and to a lesser extent Mansell. The thing that pulls these guys together is that that struck the jackpot and got the best car in the field. Then started winning. And to most of them- I take my hat off. Don't forget, you may have the best car out there, but you've still got to get across the line without swerving into your team-mate, or stalling it during a pit-stop.

To the others, like their co-drivers who had the same car and never made those championships, or got close (Patrese, Frenzen, Brundle, Irvine, Coulthard, Barrichello), I say- "you want to get paid for doing what every one of us mortals would give our eye teeth for." (j/k)

Don't despise the guys for making it good, whether great or not. Webber is a case in point. I don't think anyone doubts his team-mate has more natural ability, but one thing you have to say is, now that he has his ducks in a row, now that he has the best car, he is at least making a credible go of it. The years have taught him to keep calm, to make less mistakes, and these are the fruits of his labour- he's had more wins/poles than anyone this year, and is leading the WDC. Of him, more cannot be asked.

[Mysticf1]

Well said gibells, its one thing to have a dominant car, its entirely another to use it to its potential. Many people think anyone could have won the WDC in the 1997 willaims but frenzen didnt even come close to equaling Villeneuves efforts, same can be said for Button and Barrichello last year.

Vettel definitely has the talent, Webber has the experience...the closest team pairing in F1 at the moment without doubt. Both able to extract the potential on their given days.

[Gary]

Ditto. Very well put, gibells.

[Richard]

Another +1 for gibells

[xpensive]

In 1969, Sweden had the two most promising F3 drivers, Reine Wisell and Ronnie Peterson, both totally dominating the European series. Reine scored a 3rd in his GP debut at Watkins Glen, that was to be his best ever result, while Ronnie went on to win ten GPs, which was a rather modest result for his talent.

Reine made some poor choices after being replaced by Dave Walker at Lotus, ending up with BRM and what not, nobody remembers him now. Ronnie made some poor choices as well, but perhaps not as bad, but became a legend of seat-of-the-pants racing, the master of the Lotus 72.

Point is, that it takes very little to make a huge difference in the F1 business, if Reine could have hung on to his Lotus drive for 1972,
god knows what the results would have been.

[Richard]

The most successful drivers won't necessarily be the fastest. Success relies on getting in the right place at the right time, ensuring you get the most from your team, persuading your backers to back you, etc. No different to the requirement for success in any other career.

edit to expand on that ...

Mansell's consistent success showed he had all the above qualities.

To get back to the OP, I'd put Webber and Button in the Hill/Villeneuve category for now. That is to say their success seems to be more about striking it lucky in the right car at the right time. Lets see if they can beat their teammates this season.