Team Orders Ban Lifted

[myurr]

It was still too early in the season and really quite underhand. For all you know that could have been the start of Massa's fightback before Ferrari crushed his spirit. It's not like Alonso had taken charge of the championship at that point.

I agree it was underhanded, but to say 'it could have been the start of Massa's comeback' is a somewhat weak argument, given that he had also been dominated by Alonso to that point - so while i agree that Alonso was hardly in charge of the championship in absolute terms, compared to Massa he definitely was in charge. If Massa's motivation was ruined by that incident then that is his problem and his weakness and flaw as a driver.

For me, to say team orders are okay in one circumstance but not another is double standards. For the record i dislike them being used in both situations - i think drivers should have to beat each other on track regardless. However, in the real world that is obviously unlikely, to say the least. Getting back on topic, at least the new rules end these kind of situations - technically, if not morally.

Get where you're coming from but I really disagree with it being double standards - life is rarely black and white. Some people think euthanasia is a human right whilst others call it murder. I'd imagine that both sides would agree that killing in cold blood is abhorrent - circumstances sometimes justify the actions.

I too would rather team orders had no place at all in F1, and that drivers were instead more sporting to each other fighting it out on track for the victory but helping each other out where it makes sense.

In this case it was the first weekend of the season where Massa seemed to get on top of the car and tyres, and with Ferrari taking the wind out of his sails he really looked like he just didn't try for the rest of the year. Afterall what was the point, even if he was able to beat the rest of the field he wouldn't be allowed to beat his team mate. In some ways his lack of form in the latter stages of the competition hurt Alonso's chances as he wasn't up there to help him in that fight.

Lest we forget that Alonso was only 5th in the championship at that point and was hardly looking like he was going to do as well as he eventually did, with relatively poor pace to the McLaren and Red Bull and a string of costly mistakes to his name.

[WhiteBlue]

Lifting the team order ban was the right thing to do. Letting Alonso keep the seven illegitimately gained points was obviously wrong. Todt was lucky that it did not matter in the end because poetic justice was done by fate. Only god knows what concession Ferrari made to Todt for Alonso being allowed to keep those points. Could it have had something to do with the new engine formula?

[Raptor22]

What is pretty funny about the whole ban is that in the Last ten years Ferrari is the only team to ever execute team orders open on track, nobody has really done that. It is simply ridiculous that the ban gets removed only because Ferrari breaks the rule once again with the excuse 'Others do it too but it doesnt get noticed' It is simply ridiculous, i dont have any other words for it.

Not exactly true, McLaren has exercised team order on occasion as has the Minnows.

Stewart GP used it to gain its first F1 victory.

The issue is Ferrari has been stupid enough to use team orders in the most distasteful manners possible.
Austria 2002 hen even Schumacher felt ashamed of a victory being handed to him.

[kalinka]

The issue is Ferrari has been stupid enough to use team orders in the most distasteful manners possible.Austria 2002 hen even Schumacher felt ashamed of a victory being handed to him.

Agree on that. What isn't funny about the ban, is the concept behind it. How they mean to attract more fans to watch F1 with that regulation ? F1 will be back in USA soon. How they mean they'll attract fans there, where using team orders is almost unthinkable ?

[747heavy]

How they mean they'll attract fans there, where using team orders is almost unthinkable?

So, did they not watch and cheer for Lance Amstrong when he won his Tour de France titles?
A sport where you allways had team mates who´s job it is to lure others into spending their energy early or providing slipstream/draft for the team leader, and then just go out of the way.
It does not seem to bother most people, because they know about it upfront, and it is just part of the game.

The uproar came from the fact (IMHO) that people where feeling taken for a ride. If they know that this is the way one team is going to operate, they will expect it, and not making much bones about it.

Sure, some may still distaste it, and it´s their good right, so they will probably back another team, which is fine.

On the other hand, I think every team should have the right to choose it´s modus operandi.
If one wants to choose a team leader and a "wing man" then be it, they choose their strategy (putting their eggs in one basket) and either reaping the rewards of it, or falling short.
Others may let their two drivers fighting it out on the track.
There are different ways to skin a cat, why do we think one way is better or more just then the other.

Just be clear and open about it, and I don´t think most people will have a problem with it.

Nobody put a gun on Massa´s head and forced him to sign up with Ferrari.
If he thinks he is better off somewhere else, he should go and try.
As did Irvine and Barichello, and they still did not ended up beeing WDC.
I´m sure there are enough drivers out there, who would rather sign up as No.2 for Ferrari then as No.1 for HRT, Sauber or another midfield or tailender team.

Everybody makes their choice, based on their assessment of a situation.
What about tolerance?
Why not just respect (does not mean you have to like it) that some teams choose a different way to go about their business.

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong, or more successful in the end.
Where it will depend on your personal definition of success, if you call a won WDC/WCC that.

If McLaren is happy and cool to loose some championships, but to maintain their "fair play" approach, then this is their choice IMHO, and they can feel good about it, as it is Ferrari´s choice to do it different if they like.
What´s the big deal?

[PlatinumZealot]

What is pretty funny about the whole ban is that in the Last ten years Ferrari is the only team to ever execute team orders open on track, nobody has really done that. It is simply ridiculous that the ban gets removed only because Ferrari breaks the rule once again with the excuse 'Others do it too but it doesnt get noticed' It is simply ridiculous, i dont have any other words for it.

I think Ferrari were just keeping it real.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

+1 747

I dont see how Massa can complain when in similar cars, Alonso outperformed him. This despite knowing the team better and it being Alonso's first year.
Ferrari wanted the best possible outcome for their main protagnist, nothing wrong with that.

In Germany, Alonso was quicker than Massa. What is a team to do? Allow them a Red Bull(vettel webber collision)situation and effectivley kill Alonso's challenge dead? Of course not.
Red Bull had a 0.5 second they could afford to let their men race as if it went wrong they could go to the next race KNOWING they would still have some sort of advantage.

Ferrari were playing catch up and stuck their eggs in one basket that was most likely to win(Alonso). Again, nothing wrong with that IMO, but they could have done it more gracefully I suppose.

[Arunas]

747
+1 You have not only technical understanding of things, can not put it better with my language knowledge.
Amen

[myurr]

The problem with comparing to cycling is that even Lance Armstrong would have little realistic chance of victory without the support of his team mates. That is not the case in F1 at all, where a driver could dominate the field quite comfortably without having to have a team mate even entered in the race. F1 is not a team sport, by necessity, when it comes to on track racing - and that I why I have such a dislike of it. If it's first and foremost a team sport then scrap the drivers championship and be done with it.

Also there is a huge difference between F1 and the tour de France, for example, in the number of teams and entrants. According to Wikipedia there are usually 20 to 22 teams of 9 riders, so that's a grid of 198 people! Even with 20 - 22 team leaders all duking it out and able to fight for the win, that is still a competitive field. In F1 you have only 24 entrants on the grid, of which only a handful ever have a realistic chance of fighting for a race win. Introduce team orders and you reduce that already small number even further.

[andartop]

Said it before, and will say it again: as long as the rules forbid an individual renting, buying or building his own car and entering the F1 circus, it is a team sport. Each team has to have two cars. There can only be one WDC.
Only way to get rid of team orders would be to allow individual entries, or have one car teams.
Team orders have always been used in F1, and always will, one way or another. Massa lovers and Ferrari-haters are welcome to continue taking offence. Selective judgements and good-guy badges have also always been a part of F1.

[myurr]

Said it before, and will say it again: as long as the rules forbid an individual renting, buying or building his own car and entering the F1 circus, it is a team sport. Each team has to have two cars. There can only be one WDC.
Only way to get rid of team orders would be to allow individual entries, or have one car teams.
Team orders have always been used in F1, and always will, one way or another. Massa lovers and Ferrari-haters are welcome to continue taking offence. Selective judgements and good-guy badges have also always been a part of F1.

Then scrap the farce known as the World Drivers Championship. It's either a drivers championship or a team sport, it can't properly be both. You don't see football teams fighting it out only based on man of the match.

[natehall]

there has and always will be team orders....

unless start selling spec cars to the teams, individuals, etc, there will always be driver preference in teams, and with the team orders ban there still has been this season...

Vettel getting the new wing after his had broken
Massa being instructed "Fernando is faster than you - can you confirm you understood this message"
Barrichello moving over in 2002

2 out of three events happened during the team orders ban....

[mkw0101]

Team Orders will ruin F1. There will never be a clean podium finish.
I am tired of politics in F1 and it actually is becoming like those lying, cheating polititons who do nothing but bask at their power and don't care about people. I don't want F1 to be that way and F1 still exsist today because of us the fans and they should be listening to us not the corporate fat cats.

It would be better to let the drivers make the decisions and do what ever they wish according to the F1 rules and regulations.

[AndySeiji]

F1 is a very unique sport.

It is a team sport, as it depends on the work of hundreds (sometimes thousands) of people to deliver the best performance and speed. That's why there is a so called prize for the best constructor.

Yet, it is also an individual sport. Once on track, the result relies, at that moment, on the performance of a single person. It is important to notice, for example, the amount of psychological effects that influence the results of this individual. That's why there is a prize for the best driver.

In my opinion it is not up to the team decide if a pilot should let his teammate overtake him or not. The drivers are (at least most of them) professionals who know which of their moves are best for the team. Why treat them like kids on wheels?

[Intego]

When they listen to the fans they can roll the dice, too many different opinions ...