Mike Coughlan joins Williams after Stepneygate sentence

[Hangaku]

Of course F1 isn't whiter than white Marcush.

But think of the precedent it sets. Engineers can pass on info to each other, only to get a 2 year ban and be back in business once the ban is up....IF they get caught.
As I said this isnt about Coughlan/Symmonds et al returning, this is about the precedent it sets.

The bar has just been lowered very dramatically in F1.

The precedent is set by the punishment, that's the point.

What about investment (w)bankers who lose millions of pounds on stock markets? Are they allows to return to work? Damn straight they are, because they have to prove themselves again. Nothing different here.

[Mr Alcatraz]

Let's not forget F1 is a business first

Wrong, it is a competition first.
The business, and P.R. end of the series is corrupt as $hit however!

Nowadays, it's a business first and a competition a distant second.

That's the way it is now. Whether that's the way it should be is another story, and my personal inclination would be no.

I have a profoundly philosophical disagreement with that concept.
If the competition sucked and nobody thought it was worth watching where would that leave the Business?
I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one.
BTW apologies for the tone on my previous post on this thread.
I will agree with this statement.
F1 is the pinnacle of auto racing, and very big business

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The precedent is set by the punishment, that's the point.

The law and its punishment is an ass, in that instance. In the end though, teams should have the moral fibre to not employ them.

What about investment (w)bankers who lose millions of pounds on stock markets? Are they allows to return to work? Damn straight they are, because they have to prove themselves again. Nothing different here.

Comparing bankers with bent engineers is folly. I want to burn the bankers!

[Hangaku]

The precedent is set by the punishment, that's the point.

The law and its punishment is an ass, in that instance. In the end though, teams should have the moral fibre to not employ them.

What about investment (w)bankers who lose millions of pounds on stock markets? Are they allows to return to work? Damn straight they are, because they have to prove themselves again. Nothing different here.

Comparing bankers with bent engineers is folly. I want to burn the bankers!

I understand that it's hardly a comparable job, however, my point was that investment bankers who should be held infintely more accountable for their actions than a chief designer (btw), are not so.

I was trying to bring this into perspective - he's a design chap that made a bad decision, and that's it

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Thats right Hangaku,

Perspective is that F1 is a sport, albeit a business simultaneuosly. Corrupt engineers ought to be made an example of, for reasons I explained.

[axle]

Business is Competition. Survival by any means necessary.

Ferrari (who will complain most) are the ones that have bent/broken the rules most to know that best...

No one in F1 hasn't cheated. Renault had data, McLaren had data, Toyota had data and technically anyone that hires anyone from another team gains data. It's all incestuous.

If the FIA didn't punish him enough in your opinion...tell them.
But note, he didn't end up in jail.

[feynman]

Interesting that still believing in the importance of honesty, integrity and self-respect gets you marked as a "fundamentalist" ... whatever that is supposed to mean. That theft and breach of trust are now regarded as not important.

And then playing to the peanut gallery with "bankers", give us a break. That kind of sloppily misfiring analogy is as pointless as it is banal. Losing money in speculation is not actually illegal; stealing, embezzling, false accounting, misuse of information for personal financial gain is, and would see you prosecuted and unlikely to hold a position of significant trust again.

Williams PR weakly spinning that he made "a mistake", he didn't make a mistake. Engineers misplacing a decimal point, or miscalculating a load are mistakes. Working in concert with a partner over a sustained period to steal property, systems and processes, use some of this information to conspire to attempt to win an illegal WDC for Alonso, use the rest of the drawings, procedures and information to feather your nest in your next employment as you and your conspirator actively hawk your services to rival teams ... none of that is a mistake.
It is a prolonged and systematic campaign of dishonesty.

Some people here choose to disregard that, to downplay its importance, to insist it doesn't matter and all should be forgotten. Others don't, that actions have consequences and that responsibility for your behaviour means something, and they think it stinks that a team like Williams should have to resort to associating itself with an incompetent cheat and thief.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

A resounding thumbs up on that Feynman.

Business is Competition. Survival by any means necessary.

I dont think so axle. By that measure, I could burn down my companies competition in order to survive? This is abhorrently wrong.
F1 makes money as a result of the sport, it is not a sport because of the business.

[Hangaku]

A resounding thumbs down on that Feynman.

I'm not playing to any peanut gallery. On the contrary, I suggest that your choice of words (and the underlying effect of trying to undermine my opinion), is in itself playing to the same audience. But I digest [sic].

For the record, I'm not condoning his behaviour at all. What he did was wrong. But let's not be silly about this - Formula One is pretty much as bent as any sport out there, and it comes all the way from the top. A chief designer and technical head sharing information with each other, when compared to all of the other scandals in F1, is a mere drop in the ocean.

And to assume that Stepney and Coughlan were the only two involved in spygate is farcical. I have no doubt in my mind, that these two were made scapegoats by their respective teams. Can I prove it? Nope. But can I disprove it? Nope.

As you have said yourself, nothing is ever crystal clear.

[axle]

A resounding thumbs up on that Feynman.

Business is Competition. Survival by any means necessary.

I dont think so axle. By that measure, I could burn down my companies competition in order to survive? This is abhorrently wrong.
F1 makes money as a result of the sport, it is not a sport because of the business.

No, that's totally pathetically over the top. He recieved and used information, no one got hurt and you're just citing unreasonably over the top actions to make a point.

[noname]

And to assume that Stepney and Coughlan were the only two involved in spygate is farcical. I have no doubt in my mind, that these two were made scapegoats by their respective teams. Can I prove it?

You do not have to give any proof, Whitmarsh already did it few years back in his letter to FIA. He openly admitted that "a number of McLaren employees" had access to Ferrari technical information. McLaren was not fined (quite severely) without the reason.

So... McLaren paid the fine and all is fine, Alonso (he was also in the loop) is still in F1 and that’s seems to be OK, but there is no room for Coughlan ? Strange logic, at least for me.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Apologies, you didnt write this then?

Business is Competition. Survival by any means necessary.

Let me paraphrase, for the benefit of your sensitivities.

I can steal a competitors information, due to my own business struggles. And that would be okay, because Business is competition, and survival is paramount by any means necessary?

Im sorry my friend, but if you truly believe that then I can see why you are defending Coughlan.

@Hangaku
So because F1 is bent, its ok to have Coughlan back?
Just would like to know if you have evidence to suggest F1 is rotten to its core. As Coughlan could have stood up and said so.
Or are you suggesting he may have been told to go quietly on the premise that he would be back 3/4 years down the road?

[marcush.]

Coughlan did wrong ,no question .but just how bad was what he did ? Mclaren got a travesty of a fine for what happened and he not only lost his job but got banned for two years as well ..when Alonso ,dLR and others discussed and used the stuff and got out of it without being touched.
The whole story was so amateurishly executed I really think he did not realise what he really did there...it´s like Newey signing up for Jaguar only to sign up for Mclaren a few days later and leave Ron with sorting out the mess he created...these people seem for whatever reason be far away from reality when it´s not car performance related..

[Hangaku]

So because F1 is bent, its ok to have Coughlan back?

Not entirely, but in not allowing him to get another job in F1 would (as you have said yourself) set a dangerous precedent. My reasoning to follow...

Just would like to know if you have evidence to suggest F1 is rotten to its core. As Coughlan could have stood up and said so.

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, but there is so much out there that it can't all be smoke and mirrors. Those in charge won't get caught, because those in charge also know too much, so it's the little people that get made the scapegoat and take a wedge for their trouble.

And do you think Coughlan would have stood up and said anything? Him versus his team, who do you think would win that one? McLaren aren't exactly amateurs in this business The same goes for Stepney. Why would you realistically employ him, if you thought he was truly the instigator in the whole affair? The fact is, Stepney is still working in motorsport and Coughlan has just got a new job - that for me is evidence enough that the whole business stinks.

Or are you suggesting he may have been told to go quietly on the premise that he would be back 3/4 years down the road?

I'm not sure the premise to return was McLaren's offer, as they couldn't possibly take him back themselves, so it's down to him to find the work. But quite possibly, he'd have accepted money for silence.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So... McLaren paid the fine and all is fine, Alonso (he was also in the loop) is still in F1 and that’s seems to be OK, but there is no room for Coughlan ? Strange logic, at least for me.

Coughlan was in verse at very great length to Stepney. He drip fed info to drivers, that would proabably happen up and down the pitlane anyhow. We know this sort of thing is part and parcel of the game.
But to keep actual blueprints of the Ferrari, along with tooling and all manner of other bits and bobs not to mention the technical direction, and keeping the vast majority of it for his next peachy number at Honda was callous.

Ron Dennis and many high up in Mclaren didnt know the extent of the travesty. Company emails back it up, Coughlan recieved emails from Stepney and then sent only a small fraction of them to FA and PDLR. Mclaren's other technical staff where not in the loop on this.
He kept most of it for his next venture. So how are McLaren and their drivers responsible?
Mclaren were hammered hard, for Coughlan's actions. PDLR and Alonso were probably only doing what most others have done in the past.

Coughlan went the whole hog on this. There is no precedent for what happened. To dismiss this as slight infraction is a disgrace.

@ Hangaku
I see your point. But this whole thing I still cannot agree with.