Horsepower of the engines.

[Juzh]

MGUH is switched to motor mode but back pressure is reduced resulting in 30hp increased ICE power: 831hp -100hp + 30hp = 761hp
Battery is also used to provide the full 160hp to the MGUK: 761hp + 160hp = 922hp???

For the 100000th time:
MGUH in generator mode DOES NOT have a negative impact on power output AS LONG as you have energy stored in ES. Only once this energy has been fully used up will those ~-100bhp come into effect. At that point it would be pointless to run free load system as power loss from lack of mgu-h recovery will be far greater than what you gain from reduced back pressure.

Tell that to Adrian Newey who CONFIRMED on Ted's notebook that the turbines run free-load in qualifying. Did you see the video? What do you have to say then?

I've said exactly what newey said, but corrected myself on motor/generator point. I still don't see where you are getting this -100 bhp? Lack of MGUH harvesting in qually doesn't rob car of power because you generally don't need mgu-h recovery for a single flying lap.

[strad]

Tommy : You know that the FIA has claimed for years that the cars run "the same fuel you can get at the pump".
And on this forum I have been taken to task many times for not believing that.
They then show that they run fuels custom blended for specific teams and engines.
I just take issue with them trying to foist that lie on us.
You can't buy the fuel Shell supply to their teams.

[godlameroso]

For the 100000th time:
MGUH in generator mode DOES NOT have a negative impact on power output AS LONG as you have energy stored in ES. Only once this energy has been fully used up will those ~-100bhp come into effect. At that point it would be pointless to run free load system as power loss from lack of mgu-h recovery will be far greater than what you gain from reduced back pressure.

Tell that to Adrian Newey who CONFIRMED on Ted's notebook that the turbines run free-load in qualifying. Did you see the video? What do you have to say then?

I've said exactly what newey said, but corrected myself on motor/generator point. I still don't see where you are getting this -100 bhp? Lack of MGUH harvesting in qually doesn't rob car of power because you generally don't need mgu-h recovery for a single flying lap.

He also made no mention of how long they run like that, or if the turbines are capable of spooling in a blow down mode...

[PlatinumZealot]

For the 100000th time:
MGUH in generator mode DOES NOT have a negative impact on power output AS LONG as you have energy stored in ES. Only once this energy has been fully used up will those ~-100bhp come into effect. At that point it would be pointless to run free load system as power loss from lack of mgu-h recovery will be far greater than what you gain from reduced back pressure.

Tell that to Adrian Newey who CONFIRMED on Ted's notebook that the turbines run free-load in qualifying. Did you see the video? What do you have to say then?

I've said exactly what newey said, but corrected myself on motor/generator point. I still don't see where you are getting this -100 bhp? Lack of MGUH harvesting in qually doesn't rob car of power because you generally don't need mgu-h recovery for a single flying lap.

You joined too late in the discussion on the figures in the Merc video.
Thermal efficiency of an engine does not include external energy sources, you must agree. In this case the external energy source is the Battery. To get the thermal efficiency of the engine all energy comes from the fuel alone when the engine is run in steady state (no energy accumulation and subsequent release).
The MGUH can send power gained from the turbine directly to the MGUK all without any energy from an external system. So the energy from the MGUH when directed towards the MGUK therefore is counted in the thermal efficiency figure.
That is where I and grunt guru started the discussion.

It was implicitly taken that the total energy input from the fuel is 1240 kW (check the Mercedes Video). Assuming 50% thermal efficiency, you get 831hp at the crank - with MGUH delivering power to the MGUK of course.
This is self sustaining mode. The most efficient mode - but not the most powerful mode.
Then it was mutually assumed that the power delivery from the MGUH is 100hp.

The most powerful mode is in qualifying - where you can now add an external energy source to the engine, in the form of energy to compress air, and energy to turn the MGUK - all from the battery. The engine itself can also again in horsepower by relieving itself of a portion of the turbocharger's parasitic losses due to backpressure by opening the wastegate. Remember the MGUH is now turning the compressor in a motor mode so no need to utilize the full effect from the turbo. This Free-load mode give maximum power but obviously more energy is wasted through the waste gate.

So no 100hp is being generated. The MGUK is giving the full beans at 160hp. The engine is on full boost, a drop in exchaust back pressure and return heat.. so the engine may have gained, say 30hp by just this alone. So when you sum it up you get 831hp - 100hp + 160hp + 30hp.

These figures are best estimations of course.

[PlatinumZealot]

Tommy : You know that the FIA has claimed for years that the cars run "the same fuel you can get at the pump".
And on this forum I have been taken to task many times for not believing that.
They then show that they run fuels custom blended for specific teams and engines.
I just take issue with them trying to foist that lie on us.
You can't buy the fuel Shell supply to their teams.

Oh. It is the same fuel.
Just as much your run of the mill girl next door is he same as Adriana Lima
Both female humans with 23 chromosomes.
Only one of them had genes hand-picked by God, and the other was a result of a drunk one night stand.

Yeah, They're the same.

[strad]

HAHAHAHA love it.. big thumbs up to that

[gruntguru]

I still don't see where you are getting this -100 bhp?

The minus 100 is just a step to calculating piston-engine hp.

Step 1. 45% TE gives 831 hp self sustaining.
Step 2. if 100 of those 831 come from the MGUH via the MGUK then:
Step 3. The crankshaft (piston engine) output is 831 - 100 = 731.

If the ES is not used max output is 731 + 100 = 831
If the ES is used max output is 731 + 160 = 891

[J.A.W.]

Tommy : You know that the FIA has claimed for years that the cars run "the same fuel you can get at the pump".
And on this forum I have been taken to task many times for not believing that.
They then show that they run fuels custom blended for specific teams and engines.
I just take issue with them trying to foist that lie on us.
You can't buy the fuel Shell supply to their teams.

Oh. It is the same fuel.
Just as much your run of the mill girl next door is he same as Adriana Lima
Both female humans with 23 chromosomes.
Only one of them had genes hand-picked by God, and the other was a result of a drunk one night stand.

Yeah, They're the same.

Yeah.. that is a good point, considering how prescriptive the engine design reg's are..
..so perhaps the fuel is even more differently tailored to a specific successful engine (Merc-Petronas/Fazz-Shell)
.. a bit like how stunning A.L.'s unusual blue eye/dark hair combo works, which to my considered/educated aesthetic purview..
..beats the opposite unusual brown eyes/blonde hair look.. real easy..

[OO7]

According to Andy Cowell, the Mercedes V6T ICE produces as much power as the last generation of V8's, I've also read that the figure was 98% the output of the V8s. The final iterations of the V8 were said to produce 750bhp to 780bhp.

Minimum to Lower End Output = 735bhp (98% of V8) to 750bhp
Upper End to Maximum Output = 764bhp (98% of V8) to 780bhp

ICE T.E Minimum to Lower End = 548kW (98% of V8) (44.1% T.E) to 559kW (45% T.E)
ICE T.E Upper End to Maximum = 570kW (98% of V8) (46% T.E) to 582kW (47% T.E)

Andy Cowell tells us that the V6T ICE produces anywhere from 735bhp to 780bhp, which is a thermal efficiency of 44.1% to 47%. Paddy Lowe tells us that the V6T compound (which includes MGU-H power in self-sustaining mode) has a thermal efficiency greater than 45%.

So taking these figures into consideration, I'd guest that the V6T ICE output was at the lowest end which would be about 735bhp with a T.E of 44.1%. Adding 80bhp of compounding would raise T.E to 49%.

Now the word apparently is that the largest gains are to be found in combustion design, so the power improvements are likely to come from the ICE and not from MGU-H efficiency (however more power from the ICE would mean more energy available for the MGU-H to harvest). Cosworth claimed 100bhp was possible from self-sustaining mode so it will be interesting to see where things go from here.

[Petroltorque]

As an aside Human chromosomes are diploid and number 36. Anyone with 23 chromosomes will not be alive and kicking.

[PlatinumZealot]

As an aside Human chromosomes are diploid and number 36. Anyone with 23 chromosomes will not be alive and kicking.

Ha! My biology is rusty but you get the point.

[Petroltorque]

No Worries!

[PlatinumZealot]

The 30hp estimate for Free-loading the turbo in qualifying was a good one:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2016/03/e ... delivered/

Honda has an aggressive engine mode for qualifying, which was one of the key defining features of the Mercedes last season in the final stages of Qualifying 3. It’s an area where Ferrari has been working hard. These maps can provide up to 30hp more than standard qualifying mode for short periods, but Honda is a little way off being able to maximise it. “The mapping on these engines is amazing,” he says. “You can play with the knock and get dramatic effects.”

[mrluke]

According to Andy Cowell, the Mercedes V6T ICE produces as much power as the last generation of V8's, I've also read that the figure was 98% the output of the V8s. The final iterations of the V8 were said to produce 750bhp to 780bhp.

Minimum to Lower End Output = 735bhp (98% of V8) to 750bhp
Upper End to Maximum Output = 764bhp (98% of V8) to 780bhp

ICE T.E Minimum to Lower End = 548kW (98% of V8) (44.1% T.E) to 559kW (45% T.E)
ICE T.E Upper End to Maximum = 570kW (98% of V8) (46% T.E) to 582kW (47% T.E)

Andy Cowell tells us that the V6T ICE produces anywhere from 735bhp to 780bhp, which is a thermal efficiency of 44.1% to 47%. Paddy Lowe tells us that the V6T compound (which includes MGU-H power in self-sustaining mode) has a thermal efficiency greater than 45%.

So taking these figures into consideration, I'd guest that the V6T ICE output was at the lowest end which would be about 735bhp with a T.E of 44.1%. Adding 80bhp of compounding would raise T.E to 49%.

Now the word apparently is that the largest gains are to be found in combustion design, so the power improvements are likely to come from the ICE and not from MGU-H efficiency (however more power from the ICE would mean more energy available for the MGU-H to harvest). Cosworth claimed 100bhp was possible from self-sustaining mode so it will be interesting to see where things go from here.

This has been superseded, latest statements put the engines at over 50% T.E and more powerful than the V10s.

[godlameroso]

I'm willing to bet the best power units are generating 150+ kW from the mgu-h in self sustaining mode. Increasing cylinder pressure doesn't always translate to more power at the crank, but it does mean more energy for the turbine to recover. Which then does translate to more power because you'll gain in deployment. It makes sense to harvest as much as possible from the mguh there is no limit to it. Any power in excess of 120kW goes right to the ES, which lets you deploy longer, which means more time in free load mode.