2025 McLaren F1 Team

[Quantum]

Your DJI experience is not a benchmark of the possible availability each team may have access to.

Correct, I don't have access to $140m dollar f1 budgets.

Besides that, a FLIR X6580sc costs 25k in white(lens extra). Guess who uses those?

[mwillems]

It's not even that to be honest, everyone has their own bias. Of course, selling opinions for facts with selective sources is not something I agree with either, but everyone has their own perception of what is a high quality source and what is not. So naturally, you will disagree with them.

I just think the arguments in general were weak and that's where I wanted to chime in, offering my view on the topic.

The "wall" of mechanics when the car is bare, which is used as the biggest indicator of something going on there, is one example of confirmation bias. There's a million reasons why mechanics hide things from the camera when the bodywork is removed. Every team does it. If you believe there is something tricky going on in the brake ducts though, you will just take that as a sign to confirm your belief.

McLaren in particular do it to an "extreme" degree and they have been doing it for a while. I remember even with the MCL35-M, they tried to hide the diffuser for as long as they could. And that was just a simple different interpretation of the rules which didn't end up getting copied from anyone.

I have a slight feeling McLaren is leading the opposition into a wild-goose chase with this brake duct thing, although unintentionally. It was RedBull who started the "rumor" with something possibly going on there after this "blue spots" debacle.

The issue is with the selective pasting id that is has been from an article that also has text that very clearly contradicts an opinion but then only posting the snippets that support it, when it's there in black and white and you've read it - but choose not to highlight it. It's like the editing of interviews or videos that you see on twitter to push a perception.

It's not just having a bias, it's making a conscious choice to hide or not surface the pieces and give a highly skewed summary. Its beyond bias, that is a choice of what to reveal and as such, that choice has labels as to whether it is honest, or not. But I'm talking about the wider conversations, not specifically the technical one.

[mwillems]

I'm sure we are running colder, but the idea that blue = "brake temps as if idling" is nonsense.
This was clearly there for some of the less informed members of the public to hook onto a perception.
Also, when was this taken? Was this after a very slow in lap with almost no use of the brakes and plenty of cooling?

Highly likely to be the case they are running cooler. However if there is no presented Thermal Imaging, it may as well just be "thermal imagining".

Most of what is posted about the Mclaren and its drivers are fully unsubstantiated opinions (Posed at times as fact), which clearly have a bias, that when reviewed or questioned, you end up in a circular argument because either the quoting from articles was so selective in order to support a specific argument - or the "context window" of the individual is so small replies are made that were covered a few posts back, and you end up circling round endlessly.

A by-product of "thermal imagining" and negatively associated context by way of acrimonious finger pointing. All you have to do now is go behind the scenes and complain to the FIA(along with your "sister" team), then spill some crumbs to Michael Schmidt to perpetuate the propaganda reel.

At what point do those guys just *"fix their f--ing car"?
Or are the thermal cameras designated to be pointed away from their own cars?

*Trademarked

You should have trademarked thermal imagining lol

[Quantum]

You should have trademarked thermal imagining lol

I'm happy for it to be used

[Farnborough]

Your DJI experience is not a benchmark of the possible availability each team may have access to.

Correct, I don't have access to $140m dollar f1 budgets.

Besides that, a FLIR X6580sc costs 25k in white. Guess who uses those?

Pertinent to this thread is the possibility of "someone" being able to supply images of the type spoken about, which with conventional photographic equipment is easily possible and without being "detected" doing so. Thats the core of observation here.
For those unaware, each team holds a whole catalogue of images of anything they find interesting in their competitors cars when unguarded. Its just routine and not a surprise as some are indicating.
An IR derived image of another team car during live pitstop to see real effects of temperature distribution is just not as difficult to capture as some suggest it would be.... with plenty of detail to make it useful.

[Quantum]

Pertinent to this thread is the possibility of "someone" being able to supply images of the type spoken about, which with conventional photographic equipment is easily possible and without being "detected" doing so. Thats the core of observation here.
For those unaware, each team holds a whole catalogue of images of anything they find interesting in their competitors cars when unguarded. Its just routine and not a surprise as some are indicating.
An IR derived image of another team car during live pitstop to see real effects of temperature distribution is just not as difficult to capture as some suggest it would be.... with plenty of detail to make it useful.

I find it equally pertinent that the speculated "outside party" sent it to the very team that sought several clarifications.
No other team was listed as recipient. Anyway, that's my speculation. IR chatter can have it's own thread I reckon

Fin.

[Watto]

Pertinent to this thread is the possibility of "someone" being able to supply images of the type spoken about, which with conventional photographic equipment is easily possible and without being "detected" doing so. Thats the core of observation here.
For those unaware, each team holds a whole catalogue of images of anything they find interesting in their competitors cars when unguarded. Its just routine and not a surprise as some are indicating.
An IR derived image of another team car during live pitstop to see real effects of temperature distribution is just not as difficult to capture as some suggest it would be.... with plenty of detail to make it useful.

I find it equally pertinent that the speculated "outside party" sent it to the very team that sought several clarifications.
No other team was listed as recipient. Anyway, that's my speculation. IR chatter can have it's own thread I reckon

Fin.

I believe (at least the story went) the images were shared (assume by Red Bull?) with rival teams, perhaps to try drums up support for a protest or more pressure to seek information with the FIA on exactly what is gong on.

[Quantum]

I believe (at least the story went) the images were shared (assume by Red Bull?) with rival teams, perhaps to try drums up support for a protest or more pressure to seek information with the FIA on exactly what is gong on.

That's a very interesting detail to the story. Why would the "outsider" have remained anonymous when surely this would've been a photo to rival that of Peter J Fox famous Rosberg W16 at Degner in 2016. Photographers love their photo in a headline, it brings commissioned work and lengthy affiliated contracts. Highly suspect that the speculated source has not attached their name to a lucrative scoop. Clever enough to take the photo but gives it away

Seems the anonymity angle has much less traction too when you consider that everyone in the pitlane would very likely know who the photographer was.

This leans to suggest that the "outsider" was commissioned or affiliated to conduct the work or indeed was an insider.
Giving plausible deniability. And of course could be separated from the "catering budget" if indeed it was commissioned by way of a sister entity to the commissioners.

[FittingMechanics]

Does anybody remember if the RB19 received anywhere near this level of scrutiny from rivals or the media?

I wonder that one as well. Teams enjoy dominances, I don't remember multiple clampdowns mid season to try and bring the gap down.

Btw I agree that Red Bull probably has nothing. They may have tried filming the car in infrared (like probably everyone does) and they see that parts of the brakes are cooler then they expect. They have no idea how it happens which is why they are just throwing stuff at the wall, like ridiculous ideas about water in the tires.

[Emag]

RB19 became so dominant more so as a "side effect" of Mercedes and Ferrari dropping the ball rather than RedBull completely nailing it. Don't get me wrong, the RB19 was an impressive car, but the gaps weren't huge and there were signs they were going wrong with the upgrades by mid 2023 already.

Ferrari got really screwed by the 2022 TD. They had to reset with the SF23 and it didn't work out for them.
Whereas Mercedes stubbornly decided to keep going with the failed zero pod concept, which retroactively set them back for 2024 as well, because by the time they gave up on the zero pod in 2023, the rest were starting to get a more mature understanding of the regulations.

[mwillems]

Given how much interest there would be in these images, why do we think there hasnt been another shot of the Mclarens drums sold to the press?

Surely an f1 photographer somewhere would have access to one?

[AR3-GP]

Given how much interest there would be in these images, why do we think there hasnt been another shot of the Mclarens drums sold to the press?

Surely an f1 photographer somewhere would have access to one?

Many years ago, F1 was showing thermal images of the tires, but the teams didn't like it so it was scrapped. I was searching for old pictures and found one. I believe this is a Red Bull. The colors on the tire itself are interesting, but check out that narrow band on the inner sidewall of the tire. That's the edge of the wheel rim. There's heat there. It's pretty interesting (well you would expect it, but I never saw an image before). That wheel rim can get pretty hot. If FOM forced the teams to run the thermal cameras again, then we would see the Mclaren brake drums during the pit stops and the temperature of the wheel rims during the race. A pity but now you see why the teams hated sharing the information.

[PikeStance]

Personally, this is all a red herring. Red Bull went from being totally dominant to chasing. McLaren went from mid-pack to the near-dominant car. I am not surprised. Instead of dominating until at least 2026, they had literally just two years. They are basically throwing things against the wall to see what sticks. If there were anything to this, the FIA would be all over this.

In Stella I trust

[mwillems]

Given how much interest there would be in these images, why do we think there hasnt been another shot of the Mclarens drums sold to the press?

Surely an f1 photographer somewhere would have access to one?

Many years ago, F1 was showing thermal images of the tires, but the teams didn't like it so it was scrapped. I was searching for old pictures and found one. I believe this is a Red Bull. The colors on the tire itself are interesting, but check out that narrow band on the inner sidewall of the tire. That's the edge of the wheel rim. There's heat there. It's pretty interesting (well you would expect it, but I never saw an image before). That wheel rim can get pretty hot. If FOM forced the teams to run the thermal cameras again, then we would see the Mclaren brake drums during the pit stops and the temperature of the wheel rims during the race. A pity but now you see why the teams hated sharing the information.

https://www.nanopromsrl.com/nanocenter/ ... 5ef5d5.png

But the images in question were of the drums with the wheels off, so I wonder why, if it is so damning, that we haven't actually seen any further shots of the Mclaren, and other cars for comparison.

The shots of tyre temps as the corner and then cool on the straights have been around for years.

[AR3-GP]

But the images in question were of the drums with the wheels off, so I wonder why, if it is so damning, that we haven't actually seen any further shots of the Mclaren, and other cars for comparison.

The shots of tyre temps as the corner and then cool on the straights have been around for years.

The FIA inspected the brake tins and declared there was no issue for them. So what purpose would there be to share those photos? If RBR did share those images to the media, wouldn't you be accusing them of trying to smear Mclaren even through the FIA already cleared the brake tins? So RBR share a thermal image and there are "blue spots". So what? What does it mean for you? Should RBR or another team request your expertise in verifying the colors?

They may be interesting, but we are not owed anything. We are not the main characters in this script. The images themselves only benefit the F1 teams by showing them the differences between their cars, and giving them clues on how to do better.