Tsunoda also has that depressed look, almost tears in his eyes. He probably regrets being "promoted".
https://x.com/TSUSTAPPEN/status/1929206883455217744#m
This is Lewis' 18th season in Formula 1 as opposed to Max's 10th. Lewis has achieved everything he set to achieve and more by becoming the most successful driver of the sport (statistically). You can't compare a driver who is on his way to retirement with one who is at his prime.PierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:46I had rather see Verstappen get black flagged than ending up depressed and struggling like Hamilton now. That's a driver that look washed up and on the verge of crying after every race on own sad fate. Honestly it's a bad look and I don''t like Hamilton but seeing a champion like that finishing that badly is not good.Wynters wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:43You'd rather Verstappen got black flagged than have 7 WDCs and over 100 race wins? A history of beating 4 other WDCs in the same equipment? Be someone who competed for championships and beat an established WDC at the peak of his powers from his very first season? And without a constant reputation for crashing people off the road who are faster than him or needing the FIA to rig Championships? Yeah, I'm sure Verstappen would rather ram into people for no reason than end up matching Lewis Hamilton.
I say that when you lose the fire, it's probably time to retire. Max being furious still show that he has the fire. Hamilton is being pushed aside to let pass Leclerc and he says nothing.Emag wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:49This is Lewis' 18th season in Formula 1 as opposed to Max's 10th. Lewis has achieved everything he set to achieve and more by becoming the most successful driver of the sport (statistically). You can't compare a driver who is on his way to retirement with one who is at his prime.PierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:46I had rather see Verstappen get black flagged than ending up depressed and struggling like Hamilton now. That's a driver that look washed up and on the verge of crying after every race on own sad fate. Honestly it's a bad look and I don''t like Hamilton but seeing a champion like that finishing that badly is not good.Wynters wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:43You'd rather Verstappen got black flagged than have 7 WDCs and over 100 race wins? A history of beating 4 other WDCs in the same equipment? Be someone who competed for championships and beat an established WDC at the peak of his powers from his very first season? And without a constant reputation for crashing people off the road who are faster than him or needing the FIA to rig Championships? Yeah, I'm sure Verstappen would rather ram into people for no reason than end up matching Lewis Hamilton.
You can't fully reset in the last quarter of a technical regulation set. There's not enough resources or windtunnel time. In order to build this car in a fundamentally different way, Red Bull would have had to concede winning any races for the last 2 years. Look how long it took Mclaren to reset and come back...Mercedes still has not managed it. Do you think Max and Yuki would like Red Bull to throw the current car away and run a midfield mule car for 1.5+ years in hopes of developing a fundamentally different concept? What would be the purpose with such little time remaining before the rules change?PierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:33That's how successful teams or companies fall, the people who build it leave and then the people who stay or replaced them rest on their laurels and wrongly become complacent because they inherited from a great work but can't maintain it.
Red Bull is at this stage and Max is sounding the alarm bell while the technical team just released a car that crushed 3 drivers in less than one year. Yuki already look like a depressed man now. Max is righfully fed up by that.
I had rather see him getting mad and furious then being depressed , giving up , accepting mediocrity and ending up like Hamilton.
None of this answers any of the sensible points made. Max can do no wrong, Max doesn't care about this, Max doesnt care about that. It's really clear that to many RB "fans", Max is the only important component. Im not sure its that healthy an approach, but its become pretty normalised.PierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:46I had rather see Verstappen get black flagged than ending up depressed and struggling like Hamilton now. That's a driver that look washed up and on the verge of crying after every race on own sad fate. Honestly it's a bad look and I don''t like Hamilton but seeing a champion like that finishing that badly is not good.Wynters wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:43You'd rather Verstappen got black flagged than have 7 WDCs and over 100 race wins? A history of beating 4 other WDCs in the same equipment? Be someone who competed for championships and beat an established WDC at the peak of his powers from his very first season? And without a constant reputation for crashing people off the road who are faster than him or needing the FIA to rig Championships? Yeah, I'm sure Verstappen would rather ram into people for no reason than end up matching Lewis Hamilton.
So basically you say that the Red Bull would need to do a complete reset of the car. That means that all the development done the last two years were fundamentally flawed and wrong, since Newey left, RB did not do anything good and in fact, each update made the car further and further weaker.AR3-GP wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:56You can't fully reset in the last quarter of a technical regulation set. There's not enough resources or windtunnel time. In order to build this car in a fundamentally different way, Red Bull would have had to concede winning any races for the last 2 years. Look how long it took Mclaren to reset and come back...Mercedes still has not managed it. Do you think Max and Yuki would like Red Bull to throw the current car away and run a midfield mule car for 1.5+ years in hopes of developing a fundamentally different concept? What would be the purpose with such little time remaining before the rules change?PierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:33That's how successful teams or companies fall, the people who build it leave and then the people who stay or replaced them rest on their laurels and wrongly become complacent because they inherited from a great work but can't maintain it.
Red Bull is at this stage and Max is sounding the alarm bell while the technical team just released a car that crushed 3 drivers in less than one year. Yuki already look like a depressed man now. Max is righfully fed up by that.
I had rather see him getting mad and furious then being depressed , giving up , accepting mediocrity and ending up like Hamilton.
One has to be realistic about how much time it takes to advance a concept. It's not the work of a minute and most teams don't manage it in any given year. When you actually get ahold of something that wins races, you will be reluctant to let it go even if the drivers are complaining about it. The drivers don't engineer the cars. They don't understand how difficult it is to actually make progress and they don't really understand what it would take to fundamentally reinvent the car. Red Bull is essentially limping along a modified RB20 to the end of the regulations set because that is in fact the best thing to do. Any other option and they would never see the fruit of the labor in time to win a championship.
Also, the RB21 on paper doesn't look close, but in terms of the neccesary upgrades, there are certain subtle changes which can have a huge impact. They have done a lot of good work in the last 4 months, and I think it will all come together quite nicely soon enough. It will never be competitive in a place like Singapore (philosophy), but they can be stronger elsewhere if the upgrade works as intended.
lol they are trading lack of competitiveness with letting him doing other seriesPierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:55Red Bull advisor Dr Helmut Marko admitted in Barcelona that Red Bull is letting the Dutchman race later in 2025.
"If you want to make Max smile, you have to talk about GT," he told ORF.
"There are calendar gaps in the autumn, and I assume Max has already taken a close look at that."
Having earlier forbidden Verstappen to even go skiing in winter, Marko defended the decision to let the 27-year-old actually race in another category.
"A GT car is a relatively slow car," said the Austrian.
The team trying to retain Max with off F1 bonus, since they probably don't expect good things with their car.
Max can do wrong like everyone, but this season, he is the only part of Red Bull that is working at a high level.mwillems wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 23:06None of this answers any of the sensible points made. Max can do no wrong, Max doesn't care about this, Max doesnt care about that. It's really clear that to many RB "fans", Max is the only important component. Im not sure its that healthy an approach, but its become pretty normalised.PierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:46I had rather see Verstappen get black flagged than ending up depressed and struggling like Hamilton now. That's a driver that look washed up and on the verge of crying after every race on own sad fate. Honestly it's a bad look and I don''t like Hamilton but seeing a champion like that finishing that badly is not good.Wynters wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:43You'd rather Verstappen got black flagged than have 7 WDCs and over 100 race wins? A history of beating 4 other WDCs in the same equipment? Be someone who competed for championships and beat an established WDC at the peak of his powers from his very first season? And without a constant reputation for crashing people off the road who are faster than him or needing the FIA to rig Championships? Yeah, I'm sure Verstappen would rather ram into people for no reason than end up matching Lewis Hamilton.
Mclaren don't have the best drivers, but they have the best team, and that is worth so much more. But today the only thing is what Max thinks, or Max compared to.otber drivers, as if thats the only thing that counts. And honestly i read things like that and its symptomatic (reflective) of RBs decline.
Going off topic to the current discussion, but ...PierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 22:55Red Bull advisor Dr Helmut Marko admitted in Barcelona that Red Bull is letting the Dutchman race later in 2025.
"If you want to make Max smile, you have to talk about GT," he told ORF.
"There are calendar gaps in the autumn, and I assume Max has already taken a close look at that."
Having earlier forbidden Verstappen to even go skiing in winter, Marko defended the decision to let the 27-year-old actually race in another category.
"A GT car is a relatively slow car," said the Austrian.
The team trying to retain Max with off F1 bonus, since they probably don't expect good things with their car.
The development of the RB20 was bad. They were behind Ferrari and Mercedes at end of last year. This is true but it's water under the bridge. They were bold to try something new so that they wouldn't be caught. It failed. That happens sometimes...PierreW wrote: ↑01 Jun 2025, 23:14That's not only McLaren who are much better, but also Mercedes and Ferrari now. All of them have outdevelopped Red Bull in the building of their car. Without Max, be realistic, Red Bull would be lucky to have 20 points in the championship. That would be the result of all the work of the engineers. Probably the pool of engineers need to be strengthened or renewed if the result of their work is pushing and pushing toward the bottom.