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That means the points lost today will mean nothing. The last hope for Max was lost today when McLaren wasn't weakened by the TD about the frontwing.
I see this and find it really strange. He's in a championship fight. Without his mistakes here today and at Jeddah he'd be more than close enough. One upgrade and you can match Mclaren, and we've seen all teams misfire so it's perfectly possible Mclaren might. The points he's thrown away with his poor start and going off track at Jeddah and with his actions today are important. Even if the car doesn't get faster, the Mclarens stand a good chance of getting physical later in the season and he's every chance of mopping up and getting right back in.
What he did today was unprofessional and selfish. Given how the team are struggling to retain personnel, the talk of a poor culture and their struggles with a car that can be driven by no one bar Max, this is exactly the kind of action that will make people doing their best at RB despair, especially those putting time in to give him the best car they can, even if it isn't the fastest today. Already there is an issue retaining the talent.
But you read a comments like yours and the equivalent "write to max" and they just follow on from the vibes at Red Bull, which is that it is all about Max. but it isn't, those brilliant people who've left RB were a big part of the reason Max was where he was. The irony is that his contract has a get out clause tied to points and that was another hatful down the drain today. I don't know if he'll leave, but Aston Martin must look very tempting right now.
In any case. The point I came to make and discuss was the one above. Really disappointing and selfish from Max today and I'm sure not helpful for the team given everything we have just discussed.
As it relates, the timing of Newey’s departure with regard to the RB17 project is puzzling. Will it be axed? Last I saw, he was supposed to remain involved with RB outside of F1, with projects like the RB17. If that’s the case then you wouldn’t think he left because the relationship soured, because that wouldn't be fully leaving. Unless there' some contractual element, or even so, wouldn’t that further sour his involvement with RB17? Have to assume Aston Martin will ask him to work on another Valkyrie or RB17 type project while they’ve got him.
Last edited by vorticism on 02 Jun 2025, 02:00, edited 1 time in total.
It's not Zak Brown peddling conspiracy theories, AR3. Whilst Zak and Toto are not RB best friends, they will certainly take an opportunity to give RB kicking, they don't tend to pull stuff from thin air or outright lie to do so. Suggesting otherwise is based on nothing more than the fact you don't like the sound of it.
So they get some CVs. Every team does. RBR is over 1000 strong. Did 500 people leave? How are they functioning right now? Otherwise we are talking about peanuts ultimately. Don't be so gullible. Toto Wolff does not like Christian Horner. He has been trying to get Max to move to Mercedes for years. He will say anything. Zak Brown is no gospel either
Zak Brown:
“The goal is to make ourselves as fast as possible, but there’s also a strategy of destabilizing the competition. We try to create tension or disrupt other teams, which isn’t unique to F1 but is particularly pronounced here,” he continued. “You’re constantly fighting for employees, drivers, sponsors, and media attention plays a big role. If you can generate some instability in rival teams - and it doesn’t always work in our favor - it can slow them down while we focus on speeding up.”
It's not Zak Brown peddling conspiracy theories, AR3. Whilst Zak and Toto are not RB best friends, they will certainly take an opportunity to give RB kicking, they don't tend to pull stuff from thin air or outright lie to do so. Suggesting otherwise is based on nothing more than the fact you don't like the sound of it.
So they get some CVs. Every team does. RBR is over 1000 strong. Did 500 people leave? How are they functioning right now? Otherwise we are talking about peanuts ultimately. Don't be so gullible. Toto Wolff does not like Christian Horner. He has been trying to get Max to move to Mercedes for years. He will say anything. Zak Brown is no gospel either
Zak Brown:
“The goal is to make ourselves as fast as possible, but there’s also a strategy of destabilizing the competition. We try to create tension or disrupt other teams, which isn’t unique to F1 but is particularly pronounced here,” he continued. “You’re constantly fighting for employees, drivers, sponsors, and media attention plays a big role. If you can generate some instability in rival teams - and it doesn’t always work in our favor - it can slow them down while we focus on speeding up.”
Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher: We are now entering the Lando Norris era
Well, the point they were making was the sheer number of them, at all levels, actively looking to leave at around the same time, not that they got them. It does state that in the article, though..?
I'm not sure what the point of the second and third quotes are.
I'd already said they'd go in on you when they can. My point is that it's not just Zak brown as you tried to originally assert and that it's unlikely to be made up in my opinion. I won't rule out the possibility that it is exaggerated, but with all due respect, I think to rule this out as untrue with no basis to do so, is probably more to do with one's own bias than anything else.
As it relates, the timing of Newey’s departure with regard to the RB17 project is puzzling. Will it be axed? Last I saw, he was supposed to remain involved with RB outside of F1, with projects like the RB17. If that’s the case then you wouldn’t think he left because the relationship soured, because that wouldn't be fully leaving. Unless there' some contractual element, or even so, wouldn’t that further sour his involvement with RB17? Have to assume Aston Martin will ask him to work on another Valkyrie or RB17 type project while they’ve got him.
Yeah he announced he was continuing with the RB17, his passion project. It's not really a competitor to the Aston Martin products though and it's kinda nice that he get's to finish the work he started.
It's not Zak Brown peddling conspiracy theories, AR3. Whilst Zak and Toto are not RB best friends, they will certainly take an opportunity to give RB kicking, they don't tend to pull stuff from thin air or outright lie to do so. Suggesting otherwise is based on nothing more than the fact you don't like the sound of it.
So they get some CVs. Every team does. RBR is over 1000 strong. Did 500 people leave? How are they functioning right now? Otherwise we are talking about peanuts ultimately. Don't be so gullible. Toto Wolff does not like Christian Horner. He has been trying to get Max to move to Mercedes for years. He will say anything. Zak Brown is no gospel either
Zak Brown:
“The goal is to make ourselves as fast as possible, but there’s also a strategy of destabilizing the competition. We try to create tension or disrupt other teams, which isn’t unique to F1 but is particularly pronounced here,” he continued. “You’re constantly fighting for employees, drivers, sponsors, and media attention plays a big role. If you can generate some instability in rival teams - and it doesn’t always work in our favor - it can slow them down while we focus on speeding up.”
Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher: We are now entering the Lando Norris era
Well, the point they were making was the sheer number of them, not that they got them. It does state that in the article, though..?
I'm not sure what the point of the second and third quotes are.
I'd already said they'd go in on you when they can. My point is that it's not just Zak brown as you tried to originally assert and that it's unlikely to be made up in my opinion. I won't rule out the possibility that it is exaggerated, but with all due respect, I think to rule this out as untrue with no basis to do so, is probably more to do with one's own bias than anything else.
I don't understand what you are arguing. Do I think RB CVs have gone to Mercedes and Mclaren? The article you posted was from May of 2024. So these are likely connected to Christian Horner's troubles at the start of last year. You are were saying that they are leaving because of the decline of RBR's car performance, the 2nd driver failures, RBR potentially ignoring Adrian Newey's input, the culture, and somehow Max. These things are not connected imo. It was likely related to the Horner's PA scandal coming to a head.
The RBR of today is recovering. Like you claim they have been fast all year, 1st and 2nd fastest and back ahead of Mercedes and Ferrari compared to the end of last year. So what does that say?
They've had several issues over the past few years, they possibly are all contributing. The timing my be coincidental but since Newey chose to leave there has been a steep decline. Not necessarily because of Newey himself, it's possibly because it was a big blow to some of the staff that work there, coupled with the other issues. There's a myriad of reasons that could be weighing on the team to cause a loss in performance.
Anyways, I don't think there's any more ground to go over and since no-one will want this to spill over into tomorrow, I shall head to bed and also put this convo to bed
They've had several issues over the past few years, they possibly are all contributing. The timing my be coincidental but since Newey chose to leave there has been a steep decline. Not necessarily because of Newey himself, it's possibly because it was a big blow to some of the staff that work there, coupled with the other issues. There's a myriad of reasons that could be weighing on the team to cause a loss in performance.
Anyways, I don't think there's any more ground to go over and since no-one will want this to spill over into tomorrow, I shall head to bed and also put this convo to bed
As I said, they are back ahead of Mercedes and Ferrari again after being lost at the tail end of last year. They were over a pitstop ahead of them before the safety car in Spain, after being behind those teams at the end of last year. What does that say? It seems you can only acknowledge a "steep decline" but won't acknowledge them finding their feet again since that is not convenient.
Although you do like to claim they were the fastest car here or there but only for the purpose of downplaying Max...
They've had several issues over the past few years, they possibly are all contributing. The timing my be coincidental but since Newey chose to leave there has been a steep decline. Not necessarily because of Newey himself, it's possibly because it was a big blow to some of the staff that work there, coupled with the other issues. There's a myriad of reasons that could be weighing on the team to cause a loss in performance.
Anyways, I don't think there's any more ground to go over and since no-one will want this to spill over into tomorrow, I shall head to bed and also put this convo to bed
As I said, they are back ahead of Mercedes and Ferrari again after being lost at the tail end of last year. What does that say? It seems you can only acknowledge a "steep decline" but won't acknowledge them finding their feet again...except to argue that it has been the fastest car somehow to suit the agenda of downplaying Max...
Hmm, again I feel that you have plucked that from somewhere unknown to me.
I'm generally the one in the Mclaren thread who has no qualms with Max' aggression and talks about him as one of the greatest drivers in F1 of all time. This has nothing to do with my opinion of a steep decline and nothing to do with my opinion of his antics today. You ended 23 and started last season absolute streets ahead, you made Mclaren's dominance look positively close. Ahem..
I never saw you behind Ferrari or Merc this year, last year it was close, the first couple of races isn't enough to figure out a pecking order with gremlins, setup knowledge and some of the parts still to arrive, and track configuration. This year Ferrari don't seem to have progressed so much. Nor Do merc look great.
Apologies if I wasn't explicit, the decline I talk about wasn't explicitly performance, but yes it is the biggest indicator if it. Two team mates now and with Tsunoda it probably won't be long before you're on to your third - or they'll just make him suffer, it's not great. As I mentioned before, there is a possibility that Max will leave Red Bull. Nobody know what is happening, but without a doubt Stroll will try and give him everything he wants. So it would be churlish to think that you aren't staring at a precipice to some degree. Whether you get to it, or if you do, that you are able to drive round it is a different matter.
Last edited by mwillems on 02 Jun 2025, 02:56, edited 1 time in total.
But why are you focussing on those names and not the fact that the whole paddock has spoken about being awash with the CVs of Red Bull employees?
Because this is gossip disseminated by Zak Brown. Everyone is looking for better job opportunities in F1. We even have a thread where some of our f1t members report on technical transfers: https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16879
If RBR was so torn apart, how have they managed to win 2 races over the almighty MCL39 and actually improve the RB21 when supposedly everyone has fled to other teams? You even said it's the 2nd fastest car with potential to be fastest, remember?
The car is as good as its fastest times. Max isnt superhuman. The car is simply capable of being extremely fast although there is a tendency to pretend otherwise. It's one upgrade away from Mclaren. and its driver should be closer in the drivers championship ready to pounce on any Mclaren mistakes. It's clearly not the fastest, but any suggestion it isnt fast is pure fantasy.
Well how have they managed to pull that off with Zak Brown's fairy tales about all the employees fleeing the ship? Rather than listen to propaganda you can just look. It's not just Christian Horner listening to the echoes of his own voice in MK. RBR is one of the largest teams by mancount in F1.
It's not Zak Brown peddling conspiracy theories, AR3. Whilst Zak and Toto are not RB best friends, they will certainly take an opportunity to give RB kicking, they don't tend to pull stuff from thin air or outright lie to do so. Suggesting otherwise is based on nothing more than the fact you don't like the sound of it.
I find Zak is playing the political game as hard as anyone tbh.
I while i agree they aren't pulling stories from no where, I think they can just as easily mislead. Was it only a small rise in CV's compared to normal? Low level, high level? They come at time when RBR were venerable Newey leaving, there was the conflict between Horner and Marko, Yoovidhya siding with Horner, Marko threatening to leave, for a team that had been so harmonious for years...an opportunity to pile on the pressure.
Even Zak on the weekend his dig at RBR that there needs to be penalties for accusing rivals of cheating to the FIA, the tyre water was out of line and a clear indication playing outside the rules, but this year they've been playing the political game but I don't think they have had anything that alludes to cheating; the questioning the FIA about what is and isn't allowed is pretty normal, I tend to think Zak is playing it for everything its worth to keep the pressure on RBR. Not saying he is doing anything wrong just hes playing the game as hard as anyone.
Even Toto this year backing Zak, McLaren have the WCC sewn up best car 2 very very good drivers, 2nd in the WCC is up for graps though and RBR are probably their biggest rival, plus is he still kinda interested in Max?
Toto today was very non commital about Max's incident with George almost sense hes trying to keep the door open should Max decide to walk did as much as he could not to be critical of Max.
Tbh, I wish we heard far less from Zak, Toto and Christian. Stella is good I don't think he gets involved too much in the stilly games - I accept they are part of F1 but I am not a fan of it. I have a lot of respect for Vassur - oddly hes probably one under a lot of pressure atm with Ferrari under performing
AR3-GP wrote:
RBR's political environment was by no means ideal, but many of these changes were going to come because of the budget cap squeezing salaries, and the looming regulation change,
Imho true and false, they made a bet that the next generation of leaders was going to be as good, will take time and y’all are taking 15 minutes to decide what any engineering company would take at least a year or two to decide.
You need to have a constant stream of good talent to stay up, frankly one of the things Ferrari has done well over the years, they may not have been best many times but the talent they grew and fired ended up winning big elsewhere, like MCL with Stella.
Clearly y’all should take more than 15 minutes to decide the fate of a technical team with the 2nd best car in hand.
And I agree that these Max ultimatums about leaving unless best car, politics with Marko, promoting and demoting drivers every few races, focusing just on Max and more are just not good, they create a toxic environment for everyone where eventually failure isn’t tolerated and risks aren’t taken and you become a follower.
They've had several issues over the past few years, they possibly are all contributing. The timing my be coincidental but since Newey chose to leave there has been a steep decline. Not necessarily because of Newey himself, it's possibly because it was a big blow to some of the staff that work there, coupled with the other issues. There's a myriad of reasons that could be weighing on the team to cause a loss in performance.
Anyways, I don't think there's any more ground to go over and since no-one will want this to spill over into tomorrow, I shall head to bed and also put this convo to bed
As I said, they are back ahead of Mercedes and Ferrari again after being lost at the tail end of last year. They were over a pitstop ahead of them before the safety car in Spain, after being behind those teams at the end of last year. What does that say? It seems you can only acknowledge a "steep decline" but won't acknowledge them finding their feet again since that is not convenient.
Although you do like to claim they were the fastest car here or there but only for the purpose of downplaying Max...
They were a pit stop ahead of McL too then… he could push much harder on those tires knowing he was pitting one more time while everyone else was keeping a 2 stopper. He’s about where he would have been with a 2 stopper anyway. 5-10s ahead of LEC who lost 5 of those behind HAM and eventually was dealing with a progressively failing car.
@PierreWache, I think you're all wrong about the situation. Ver has not decided to go anywhere. He was pleased with the 3 stop strategy and generally not too bothered about the day. He did not criticize the decision to use the hard tire after the race. He said he didn't know which tire would have been better. It was all rather reasonable takes. I'm sure he will be at RBR next year. For all the grief that the RBR technical team receives and all the CVs distributed to rivals, there's only 1 team ahead. I wouldn't trust any other teams other than Mclaren.
In 2026, I think VER will do select endurance races while RBR sort the PU and car out. He knows that is coming...If RBR build up to something by end of 2026, then he stays. If not, accept proposals from other teams. For RBR they have plenty of talents. I can see Hadjar and Lindblad at the team if Max leaves. That is going to be a very strong line up.
Last edited by AR3-GP on 02 Jun 2025, 06:07, edited 3 times in total.
