Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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bhall II wrote:Translation: "I was never interested in competing in Formula One, only the exposure gained from winning in Formula One."

To a certain extent, that's maybe understandable. But, personally, I want every team for whom that's the case to leave. Such unabashed self-interest is killing the sport, because it results in senseless regulations that have been pulled in a million different directions. I think there's no better time than now to cleanse F1 of these influences.
It's no coincidence that now we are arrive at the Red Bull Ring, Red Bull's PR juggernaut is in full swing. These last 3 days my twitter feed has seen the tempestuous triumvirate of Horner, Mateschitz and Marko threatening to leave "unless the rules are changed" or "if by some miracle, Renault become competitive".

The basic premise is that if they can't win, they want out.

I have not seen a team go to these lengths at any point in F1's history. When Williams lost their edge in 1998, I don't recall any public threats to quit. The same of McLaren in 2001, and Ferrari in 2009.
Some just quit without the need to denigrate the sport as Renault, Toyota, Honda and BMW did sans the blackmail route that Red Bull have taken.

It's the crassness of these political machinations which riles most fans. Is the situation perfect? Very far from it.
But there is a way to go about bringing change and Red Bull are beyond clueless on this front.

Jenny Gow asked Mateschitz for a few words this morning, and he walked off stipulating that "I don't do interviews".
However 24 hours previously, he was in full verse savaging Renault of "sapping the will and motivation" out of Red Bull.
Mateschitz does speak, when he wants to and when it suits him and his team.
And this gives you enough of a clue as to his mentality.

Lauda/Wolff, Arrivabene, Williams, Dennis, Tost and co all know there needs to be change. We know there needs to be change. Bernie knows it too.
It will happen, the question is when....2017 at the earliest.

Until that time, Red Bull need to shut up and deal with their problems in-house....as any respectable company would.
My suggestion would also include a blanket ban mention of Renault in singularity, instead referred to as Red Bull Renault, or the more corporate Infiniti Red Bull Renault.
I would then suggest any mentions of the rules be kept in working group or team meetings. Keep your dirty laundry indoors...or risk the avalanche of ridicule I have seen on social media...it ain't pretty.

There is also the very real possibility that we could have a barnstorming race on our hands this weekend. And boy, I'd love to see a panning wide angle 1080p slow mo of Mateshitz and co's faces if a classic occurs in their own backyard.

The bottom line is, Red bull need F1 more than F1 needs Red Bull. Red Bull leave and there will be suitors to invest, of that there is no debate. But at what price to Red Bull and their oft inflated "legacy"?
Even the Renault sniping has backfired spectacularly. They're stuck with F1 unless they want to sully their own image.

Jonathan Neale of Mclaren has the gist.
" 'This is a sport and to win a race you have to be pretty good at everything. It is a meritocracy. The guys at the front are doing a really good job. When it is all predictable, we get endless whining from journalists, pundits and some people in the sport. The moment we serve up something that throws up a bit of jeopardy and anguish, I thought that's what people wanted. Come on, get on with it. The rules are the same for everybody. As a top team we shouldn't be performing like this.'
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Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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You're out of your mind if you think Red Bull need F1 more than F1 needs them; Red Bull don't need F1 at all, and if Red Bull stop competing then F1 is potentially left with a 16 car grid and with all the trouble that will cause them.

i70q7m7ghw
i70q7m7ghw
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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When Williams fell on hard times, you didn't hear them constantly threatening to quit the sport. You don't hear McLaren complaining this year either? Red Bull are coming of as sore losers, which is not a good look for a company involved in so many different sports.

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Cold Fussion wrote:You're out of your mind if you think Red Bull need F1 more than F1 needs them; Red Bull don't need F1 at all, and if Red Bull stop competing then F1 is potentially left with a 16 car grid and with all the trouble that will cause them.
With respect, did you stop to think before you wrote that?
Currently Red Bull are more of a liability to the sport than an asset.
Should they whimper off tail betwixt legs, they'll be selling their operation. Much as every team bar Toyota have done.

And Torro Rosso is already up for sale, with most shrewd investors waiting for Mateschitz to really throw the toys out the pram before cutting a good deal.

Red bull will be on the grid, in current guise or even Coca-Cola guise...no one really cares.
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Juzh
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote: Red bull will be on the grid, in current guise or even Coca-Cola guise...no one really cares.
Except you.

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Juzh wrote:
FoxHound wrote: Red bull will be on the grid, in current guise or even Coca-Cola guise...no one really cares.
Except you.
If they shut up I'd care even less.
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SectorOne
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Red Bull has a component on the car that does not work properly so they threaten to leave F1 because of it.

In a nutshell pretty much.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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Juzh
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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SectorOne wrote:Red Bull has a component on the car that does not work properly
A component performance of which is outside of their control.

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Juzh wrote:
SectorOne wrote:Red Bull has a component on the car that does not work properly
A component performance of which is outside of their control.
They won 4 drivers and 4 constructors titles with this component that was outside of their control. Nothing has changed other than the winning and losing and the torrents of whining.
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bdr529
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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zeph wrote:
bdr529 wrote: It's not a conglomerate, Renault and Nissan have a "Strategic Alliance" there 2 separate companies
Renault dose not own Nissan, what it dose have is 43% (voting) stake in Nissan, control but not ownership.
On the other side of the Alliance, Nissan as a 15% (non-voting) stake in Renault.

I'm sure you are correct. But they have one CEO, Carlos Ghosn. If he decides to utilize the combined might of the alliance to push Infiniti forward as their global luxury brand, then that is what happens.
Yes you are correct they share a common CEO Carlos Ghosn, but it's not as simple as that.
it's called a horizontal merger, The "Renault-Nissan Alliance" it's owned equally 50-50 by both companies,
To facilitate this merger Renault gained a 43% controlling stake in Nissan and Nissan got a small piece of Renault,
this is were it get's a little confusing Renault own enough Nissan shares to technically own them and do what they want, but the Alliance deal precludes this, also both companies are still traded separately on the stock market, and not under a single new company
Which is why I said I can't see Renault spending the money for a F1 team and then branding it Nissan or Infiniti with out that side of the Alliance covering some of the cost $$$$$,
zeph wrote:
bdr529 wrote: So it wouldn't make sense for Renault to incur the cost of owning and running an f1 team and then brand it Nissan or Infiniti,
Boosting Nissan's profile and overall share price wouldn't really be the best return on investment for Renault
By the same logic, it didn't make much sense to stick the Infiniti brand on the RBR when the power unit was in fact a Renault, and yet that's what happened.
its not the same logic, because Nissan and not Renault paid for the commercial and technical partnership with Red Bull and that's why they have their name on the sidepod. the details of their partnership are linked below
http://www.carbuyer.com.sg/features/413 ... d-red-bull
http://en.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorsport ... 42069.html
I know that the alliance makes this confusing but it's not completely a case of what's mine is your's and visa versa when it comes to each others pocket books
Last edited by bdr529 on 20 Jun 2015, 22:58, edited 2 times in total.

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SectorOne
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Juzh wrote:
SectorOne wrote:Red Bull has a component on the car that does not work properly
A component performance of which is outside of their control.
And they somehow realized this after they paid another company to build engines for them?
Threatening to leave the sport because a component they bought that does not work as intended is insanity.

They have three options, other then the insane one.

1. Stick around with Renault
2. Buy another engine brand
3. Build your own engine
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

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Pierce89
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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bdr529 wrote:
zeph wrote:
bdr529 wrote: It's not a conglomerate, Renault and Nissan have a "Strategic Alliance" there 2 separate companies
Renault dose not own Nissan, what it dose have is 43% (voting) stake in Nissan, control but not ownership.
On the other side of the Alliance, Nissan as a 15% (non-voting) stake in Renault.

I'm sure you are correct. But they have one CEO, Carlos Ghosn. If he decides to utilize the combined might of the alliance to push Infiniti forward as their global luxury brand, then that is what happens.
Yes you are correct they share a common CEO Carlos Ghosn, but it's not as simple as that.
it's called a horizontal merger, The "Renault-Nissan Alliance" it's owned equally 50-50 by both companies,
To facilitate this merger Renault gained a 43% controlling stake in Nissan and Nissan got a small piece of Renault,
this is were it get's a little confusing Renault own enough Nissan shares to technically own them and do what they want, but the Alliance deal precludes this, also both companies are still traded separately on the stock market, and not under a single new company
Which is why I said I can't see Renault spending the money for a F1 team and then branding it Nissan or Infiniti with out that side of the Alliance covering some of the cost $$$$$,
zeph wrote:
bdr529 wrote: So it wouldn't make sense for Renault to incur the cost of owning and running an f1 team and then brand it Nissan or Infiniti,
Boosting Nissan's profile and overall share price wouldn't really be the best return on investment for Renault
By the same logic, it didn't make much sense to stick the Infiniti brand on the RBR when the power unit was in fact a Renault, and yet that's what happened.
its not the same logic, because Nissan and not Renault paid for the commercial and technical partnership with Red Bull and that's why they have their name on the sidepod. the details of their partnership are linked below
http://www.carbuyer.com.sg/features/413 ... d-red-bull
http://en.espn.co.uk/redbull/motorsport ... 42069.html
I know that the alliance makes this confusing but it's not completely a case of what's mine is your's and visa versa when it comes to each others pocket books
Thank you. I've tried to tell people this before, but they always argue about it.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

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ME4ME
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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Diesel wrote:When Williams fell on hard times, you didn't hear them constantly threatening to quit the sport. You don't hear McLaren complaining this year either? Red Bull are coming of as sore losers, which is not a good look for a company involved in so many different sports.
Williams had nobody else to blame then themselves. They recognized that, restructered and improved. Also now they have the best engine.

Mclaren are in a fresh relationship with Honda so it's to be expected that tolerance is still high. Surely that will fade over time. Cracks are already beginning to show.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclar ... ty-rethink

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FoxHound
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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ME4ME wrote:Williams had nobody else to blame then themselves. They recognized that, restructered and improved. Also now they have the best engine.

Mclaren are in a fresh relationship with Honda so it's to be expected that tolerance is still high. Surely that will fade over time. Cracks are already beginning to show.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclar ... ty-rethink
Williams could have blamed Mecachrome engines being sub-par to their previous Renault badged iterations. They didn't.
And McLaren are finding the "anyone with a Mercedes engine will never beat Mercedes" pill to be a bitter pill indeed.
But this is a situation of their choice, and Honda had around 9 months proper development time with this engine which was never a cats chance in hell going to be enough. Next year McLaren should be more competitive.
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Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
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Re: Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2015

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FoxHound wrote:
Cold Fussion wrote:You're out of your mind if you think Red Bull need F1 more than F1 needs them; Red Bull don't need F1 at all, and if Red Bull stop competing then F1 is potentially left with a 16 car grid and with all the trouble that will cause them.
With respect, did you stop to think before you wrote that?
Currently Red Bull are more of a liability to the sport than an asset.
Should they whimper off tail betwixt legs, they'll be selling their operation. Much as every team bar Toyota have done.

And Torro Rosso is already up for sale, with most shrewd investors waiting for Mateschitz to really throw the toys out the pram before cutting a good deal.

Red bull will be on the grid, in current guise or even Coca-Cola guise...no one really cares.
If Red Bull wanted to they could they could reduce the grid to 16 cars, they are not obligated to sell their teams and could redirect them to other projects like WEC if they so wanted to do.