Rory Byrne is back

[ringo]

I don't know the details or have a clue, but i can imagine, it wasn't about freedom.
It may have been more about autocracy over the desgin.
Mclaren looks to me like a "teamwork" team, splitting the car's design into different work groups.
In Newey's case, i think his car's are conceptualized by him and him alone.
It's designed and then tossed down to the little worker ants to realize.

I don't think he likes the "work as a team" moto on his cars.
Just like how some super car engines are built with one master builder.

He does the total design and the other guys engineer the systems and do the failure tests.

As for Byrne, someone should post all his cars. I don't think he'll be on top of his game now. He could be an over hyped dinosaur. You need to be in the game to evolve with it.

[raymondu999]

I disagree with that he is doing the design work. I think he does conceptual work, yes, but a lot of the detail design work won't be him anymore. What I meant was that when he was at McLaren and Williams, he didn't like the workflow. When he was at McLaren he had to do things the McLaren way; and at Williams, same thing. He didn't like that so preferred to leave and go to another team to start a technical department the Newey way. If that makes sense.

[donskar]

This sort of footprint is what Byrne left over when he stepped back at Ferrari ,in the same way as Barnard banged proceedures and philosophies into their heads before ,as he had done already at Mclaren ,or Benetton.

I'm not sure Barnard's Ferrari years are a good example of team organization=)

Barnard may not have been very good( read easy) with people but he sure laid the foundation in terms of proceedures and facilities to lead Ferrari into the next millenium.
Barnards single biggest fault was not to accept working in Italy as this was something impossible back then and I´d rather tend to the opinion it is still not very efficient todays.You just need to be close to all important people physically to get all details right and avoid lengthy useless discussions.

I think Newey is really someone challenging his guys with his concepts and this sort of constant challenge will lead to extraordinary results.
The usual way is the other way round the head of it all does decide on the ideas popping up around him and maybe the big item is the teams are too small to really have the plausinbility checks made by people not having toyed out that very idea..
and so the TD has a hard work in figuring out which ideas are worth all the effort and wich are the ones to discard.

Actually,marcush, I think Barnard's biggest fault was his disinterest in developing a design. I remember reading a lot about Barnard delivering a car, then washing his hands of it. He went on to the next design and left it to Gustav Brunner to turn the car into a competitive package. Barnard was/is a genius, but Brunner is vastly underrated.

[Echo]

A bit of topic, but when you say Italians arent reliable....

look at karting. 80% of all karts in the world are made in Italy or have something with Italy to do.

All the top teams are Italian made, Chassis from Italy and Engines from Italy.
The top teams are Italian too (KF1, KZ2 etc), Tony Kart, Intrepid, Maranello, Birel, FA kart, Kosmic Kart. Engines from Italy, Vortex, maxter etc.

[marcush.]

Actually,marcush, I think Barnard's biggest fault was his disinterest in developing a design. I remember reading a lot about Barnard delivering a car, then washing his hands of it. He went on to the next design and left it to Gustav Brunner to turn the car into a competitive package. Barnard was/is a genius, but Brunner is vastly underrated.

Maybe you see it a bit like the Italians did but Barnard had a very different vision .
I very well remember that his vision was that GTO and in the second stint FDD was soleley a research and design facility to produce the next car for Ferrari .He never intended to support campaigning of it .Productionwise he was only interested in the most advanced parts and things that could not be made to the required spec at the base in Maranello.

The moaning came about when development of the car had to take place at Maranello who did not love the british design understandably.
so Barnards work was called unfinished etc ..but really Brunner is best described by Saubers words:If you had to build a Formula 1 car in the jungle Gustav would definitely be your man..

[shelly]

I would have preffered that this thread had not turn taken the anti-italian bias some posters have pushed on.

The basic point is: there has to be someone who "takes the shots for the car, as someone sets. What's taking the shots? It's taking the choices, taking the risks, and setting the compromises.

About the latter issue: you face typical technical compromises between departments, a classic one being aero vs structure, "I want it that thin" vs " I can't build it that thin". You must know from both worlds to set compromises right, trust one instead of the other, push the other to fill the gap.

Few people have the brains, knowledge, experience and managerial attitude to fill that position; in fact I think neither Newey has.
In absence of such an ideal "know it all" chief designer, responsibility for success lies in attitude, honesty and work ethics of the team of top area specialists, responsibel for each department, (aero, structures, engine, vehicle dynamics) who have to push all the boundaries of their specific field and drop the towel only when they do not have nothing more to give.

[Richard]

Few people have the brains, knowledge, experience and managerial attitude to fill that position; in fact I think neither Newey has.

Agreed. The RB7 is as reliant on virtual modelling and analysis as any other on the grid. It will also be reliant on some very tight project management of the design and production. I think it fair to say that Newy admits he doesn't excel in those areas.

Newey may be a fantastic conceptual leader, but as with all successful leaders they are reliant on being surrounded by people with skills as good, or in same cases better, than themselves.

Bryne, Bennard, Bell etc will be no different. Its about teamwork & leadership.

[marcush.]

It´s not anti italian ,not at all.
I don´t believe in fighting for detail solutions .It´s not like that.It´s not about compromise ,it´s about integration of targets into a common -coherent- design and not about giving up on things to make others possible.
Very few people have the stance and imagination to perform these tasks but surely the bunch of people at RedBull have shown exactly that.If this is Newey or Marshall ,I don´t know but they have it.willis obviously did not fit into this well enough(clashing with Newey who pushed him away from work on the car towards administrative work as I understand) and hopefully he slots in better at Mercedes GP.

[shelly]

Interview released today from Ferrari clears up two point for this discussion:

-Tombazis is chief designer for the 2012 car (he calls the shots)

-they are trying to build a better car by forcing aero-structure compromises on the side of aero, i.e. by asking their structures guys more effort to build strentgh into slimmer/tighter/fancier shapes. Or at least their are PRing this approach.

[xpensive]

I can't remember where but I seem to remember someone; or maybe Newey himself, that Newey didn't like that he was never given his own technical freedom; somehow he was underused or something? Can't completely remember though

I seem to remember Adrian Newey saying that his habit of making his initial layouts the analog way, just like Barnard btw, which maddened Ron Dennis as he had this fixed idea of the "sans papier" office, or something to that effect anyway.

On topic, Rory Byrne is what, 67 or something, which makes me doubt those rumors of a full-time comeback with Ferrari?

[Richard]

Surely Barnard's time at McLaren predated the computer's conquest of engineering design offices? He left McLaren in 1985.

His last Ferrari was in 1997. I imagine they had 3d CAD, but in a drawing for production context rather than the integrated analysis and design packages we know today.

What is unusual about Newey is that he is in an ear where paper is rarely used in production or analysis, while they were complimentary in Bararnd's time?

Its all academic anyway, most good designs these days start off with a couple of inspired engineers doodling a sketch in a notebook.

[xpensive]

...most good designs these days start off with a couple of inspired engineers doodling a sketch in a notebook.

I beg to differ, I'd say the best designs starts out in the mind of one single great engineer inspired by a few decent ones.

As for Barnard, his Ferrari days were not the end of his F1 career, the 1998 Arrows A 19, possibly the most beautiful F1 car ever, came from his pencil. Then came the consultant work for Prost in 1999-2001, which perhaps should best be forgotten.

[Richard]

Even the greatest designers need someone to sound out their ideas? That's when the thought crystallises, when the guru says "I'm thinking along these lines" and the trusty listener says "do you mean this", or "how does this bit work".

As Margaret Thatcher once said, "every Prime Minister needs a Willie" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wh ... _1983-1989

[munudeges]

-Tombazis is chief designer for the 2012 car (he calls the shots)

What's Pat Fry doing I wonder? Too many spare parts for my liking........

[munudeges]

On topic, Rory Byrne is what, 67 or something, which makes me doubt those rumors of a full-time comeback with Ferrari?

A full-time comeback isn't on the cards I wouldn't think. He was putting in some pretty hefty hours and he wanted to retire back to Thailand. I think managing to succeed at a place like Ferrari was an achievement in itself.

Then came the consultant work for Prost in 1999-2001, which perhaps should best be forgotten.

Consultancies like that never seem to work, which is why I'm sceptical of Byrne's involvement now. You're either in or you're not. If you're not you're just getting in the way.