2012 Italian Grand Prix - Monza

[turbof1]

My bet is DNF by Alonso. D'Ambrosio will be involved. Also i want to see if will be in offers banning D'Ambrosio in next race because of incident with Alonso. =D>

Another DNF would be nice; it would make him loose just enough points so that he is around the points of the Red Bulls and Raikkonen, and within reach of the McLarens. That would be very nice to see for the remaining races. Just a DNF by technical problems though; nothing anywhere like that life-threatening shootout with cars at him.

[Vasconia]

I would like to see this:

Pole:

1.MSC
2.Hamilton
3.Raikkonen

Race:

1.MSC
2.Raikkonen
3.Hamilton

But I think we will see this:

Pole
1.Hamilton
2. Button
3. Schumi

Race:

1. Hamilton
2. Button
3. Alonso

[raymondu999]

Yes but the more wing you have - the better traction you have. More downforce always helps through the chicanes and corners, even at Monza. There isn't an upper limit where downforce stops helping you. If you ran no rear wing, that wouldn't produce a good laptime either at Monza, I'd imagine.

[Gerhard Berger]

Unlikely that that engine is the one to be used for Monza I think.

Very unlikely - I'm pretty sure every team takes a new engine specifically at this race track.

There are rumours that the engine suffered damage, which would be a shame considering it was a new engine for that race.

Speaking of engines, i noticed Vettel is rather tight on engines after the problem he had in Valencia.

[raymondu999]

Why would he be? That was an alternator failure, not an engine failure.

[turbof1]

Yes but the more wing you have - the better traction you have. More downforce always helps through the chicanes and corners, even at Monza. There isn't an upper limit where downforce stops helping you. If you ran no rear wing, that wouldn't produce a good laptime either at Monza, I'd imagine.

Well it will certainly not be a compromise like the one for Spa. of course more downforce means higher cornering speed, but you have to take those corners anyhow at a low speed, at which the car will not produce high df levels anyhow. Of course you need a minimum amount of downforce to get through, additional downforce will help as well, but teams will not want to compromise top speed by alot.

[raymondu999]

of course more downforce means higher cornering speed, but you have to take those corners anyhow at a low speed, at which the car will not produce high df levels anyhow.

I actually wonder if that's true anymore, even around Monza. The engines are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be in the V10 days and of years gone past - and the increased downforce helps you carry more speed through corners AND have better traction - so that's a double whammy of help on entry to the straights, especially from the medium speed Lesmo 2, and the faster exits of Parabolica and Ascari. Another unexpected help of a higher downforce (and therefore more aggressive gearing, albeit to a lower top speed) is that you're quicker between the first two chicanes - better exit, and the cars with a low downforce setup never hit top speed around Curva Grande anyways. Watch back to 2011, and Vettel was the fastest car bar none through Curva Grande, as he had better traction onto the straight, and was hitting his top speed (while others couldn't hit even Vettel's top speed)

[f1316]

Alonso kept going purple in S1 during quali and then dropping off - I would infer from that that their low downforce package is pretty good. As mentioned elsewhere, Massa even looked pretty hand in that sector in the race.

I think Alonso will win this one, but I expect McLaren to be very strong too.

[godlameroso]

Alonso has never done well in Spa, but he is a Monza killer. The nature of the track suits him perfectly, it's probably why he didn't look so dissapointed to DNF. We'll find out in three days what kind of parts they will have brought to the circuit.

[turbof1]

of course more downforce means higher cornering speed, but you have to take those corners anyhow at a low speed, at which the car will not produce high df levels anyhow.

I actually wonder if that's true anymore, even around Monza. The engines are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be in the V10 days and of years gone past - and the increased downforce helps you carry more speed through corners AND have better traction - so that's a double whammy of help on entry to the straights, especially from the medium speed Lesmo 2, and the faster exits of Parabolica and Ascari. Another unexpected help of a higher downforce (and therefore more aggressive gearing, albeit to a lower top speed) is that you're quicker between the first two chicanes - better exit, and the cars with a low downforce setup never hit top speed around Curva Grande anyways. Watch back to 2011, and Vettel was the fastest car bar none through Curva Grande, as he had better traction onto the straight, and was hitting his top speed (while others couldn't hit even Vettel's top speed)

I do not know how much more traction more downforce will give, so I can't make comments on that. However, do note that Vettel last year had a very, very specific Monza package (teams were complaining about that this violated the RRA!). Also take note that this was the rear wing he had at Monza:



That is a very low drag low downforce wing.

[Lca1443]

Alonso has never done well in Spa, but he is a Monza killer. The nature of the track suits him perfectly, it's probably why he didn't look so dissapointed to DNF. We'll find out in three days what kind of parts they will have brought to the circuit.

Also because a car nearly decapitated him. He was probably a little happy/thankful to still be alive.

[raymondu999]

And yet his setup was still the draggiest, most-downforcy setup of the lot. 327kph, 22kph off the top of the speedtraps (quali data from last year)

[raymondu999]

Setup is the biggest question for me. I wonder if the low drag setup philosophy of Monza is true anymore.

The engines are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be in the V10 days and of years gone past, so the focus goes more on aero efficiency. The L/D of 2012 cars versus the 2011 cars is probably worse, as we can see that all the quali times so far have been slower than last year, and we have less downforce too.

Will that shift the philosophy a bit higher up the downforce range? Not Monaco territory, obviously, but higher than what would've been a conventional Monza setup in the past.

The increased downforce helps you carry more speed through corners AND have better traction - so that's a double whammy of help on entry to the straights, especially from the medium speed Lesmo 2, and the faster exits of Parabolica and Ascari. Another unexpected help of a higher downforce (and therefore more aggressive gearing, albeit to a lower top speed) is that you're quicker between the first two chicanes - better exit, and the cars with a low downforce setup never hit top speed around Curva Grande anyways. Watch back to 2011, and Vettel was the fastest car bar none through Curva Grande, as he had better traction onto the straight, and was hitting his top speed (while others couldn't hit even Vettel's top speed)

[turbof1]

Difficult to make any comments about that also; don't forget modern f1 cars have their gears set up quite agressively (we noticed that too at the Belgian GP, not just with Red Bull, but also Button). How much of that speed difference lies in drag and how much in engine and gearbox set up? Just take a look at Spa: Kimi had a higher maximum speed at all the sectors then Vettel and Webber, even though many sources claim he had the higher downforce level (and looking at his rear wing that could very well be true). Just saying: a lower top speed isn't always coupled with a lower or high downforce set up.

I just watched his pole lap from last year. Seb was hitting the limiter 4 times throughout the lap; I think that does indicate his engine was set up agressively and for more acceleration.

[Gerhard Berger]

Why would he be? That was an alternator failure, not an engine failure.

i'm not sure if you can replace the alternator or whether it has an FIA seal on it. He did take a new engine in Silverstone, despite the Valencia engine being a new one. Not sure if the Valencia engine will be used again.