Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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xxChrisxx
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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ced381 wrote:Thanks to OP, the first few post were interesting, after that it looks like a bunch of schoolboys arguing on who has the strongest father or the biggest d**k...
It's a very circular topic, so they tend to bloat to a monster merry go round flame fest. When when you take a step back it's easy to see that everyone is actually saying the same thing.

It's easier to just think of it as 'engine output' that just happens to have a torque, rotational speed and power associated with it all simultaneous and equal in importance.

engineer_roy
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Raptor22 refers to a compressed spring.
In a compressed coil spring the potential energy is contained by twisting the material from which the spring is made. This is converted to kinetic energy by the untwisting of the material.
The energy is the same for a straight length of wire as it is for the coil except that the coil delivers the effort in a straight line whereas the wire delivers it as a torque.
The beauty of coil springs is that the stress is uniform across the entire outer surface of the material and thus the power or energy can be optimised. Also the power can be conveniently contained in a small cylindrical space, such as when operating upon valves.
Sir Henry Royce, in typically modest fashion, stated his profession as simply ... "Quidvis recte factum quamvis humile praeclarum"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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xxChrisxx wrote:

A few comments I have. I realise you may know this, but I am just clarifying and not trying to undermine or belittle anyone by being basic.

An engine, by definition, produces power.
HOT!!
In the context of a car engine, the power is produced by the expanding combusion gases, which in turn produces a torque at the crank.
HOT!!
This is not to say that torque is produced then power is a result. They are both one integral 'thing'.
COLD!

In the car engine they are linked geometrically. But they are not integral in broad engineering terms. Power is such a broad spectrum of things.

Acceleration through time is basically applying a force over the given distance you are accelerating. ie Work. By definiton you can do more work by having more power.
Not true. You can do more work with LESS power but it will take you longer.

So to sum up: a practical 'good' engine will have a balance between good solid power output and a good torque band or drivability. As both curves are inherently linked together, you can use either to determine where you need to tune for.

So it boils down to: we want more of both.
Some of this true.. but what you want is more power across the rev band. An engine with more torque at lower RPM is simply as a RESULT of it making more POWER at low rpm. It's all about power, where it acts and timing(control) of that power.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Raptor22 wrote:

"Torque can exist WITHOUT energy transfer or motion."
really? Wow.
This is pretty basic stuff. You can have torque without any motion. A compressed helical spring is the perfect example. I can explain it if you want.

Power is a result of the operation of an engine. Energy, not power is contained within fuel. Thats enrgy conversion acts in a confined space that results in displace both linearly and rotationally/ Power and Torque co-exist in this application.
Hey Mr. Manhattan, I live in a world were time flows 8) . Perhaps you live in some dimension where you can slow down explosions to mere breezes. But I already gave you the definition of power in my 2nd post. Power is energy, Torque is energy. This argument is where I am telling you the difference and which one is the priority.


actually its called a Nuclear Energy plant. The power comes as a result of TURNING a turbine...can you see the relationship with Torque?


That is back pedal thinking i sense. The power comes from a result of Nuclear fission. Not turning a turbine. Just like the power in a car engine comes from combustion of gases.


Wow you loaded that dice quite nicely didn't you. YOU provide two engines one with a clear perforamnce benefit either due to incresed displacement or increased stress levels.
Yes, because one engine has more power. I purposely loaded the dice like that to catch you. That is what power can do for you.
I'd rather have the engine that gets me out of the corners quicker, results in better acceleration to top speed. Then the guy with more power can catch me If he can down the street. But by the time he is at power peak I'd be long gone.
Nope.. you are some how thinking that power only exists at high rpm and it never exists at low rpm. Which is a misconception. Power generation at low down rpm, is what I think you mean. That special tune which is your fuel mixture, your valve timing, your spark timing, you high flow port and polish, race fuel, individual throttles all that good stuff.. RESULTS in a bigger and better timed explosion in the cylinders, which make MORE POWER due to bonding engergy and , and that power heats the molecules of gas which make pressure, and that pressure pushes the pistons, which in turn, pushes the crank shaft which works over a circular geometry (that is whrere Pi constant comes in ), which makes torque. So no matter how you want to twist it.. I am always two steps ahead of you in this argument. 8) because you only stop at the crankshaft.
P=2piNT/60

2pi/60 is a constant.
Power is proportional to RPM and Torque if the input energy is also constan i.e. Fuel mass flow rate in MJ/kg/minute.

SPIN it whichever way you want.
2 pi is the number of radians in one rotation.

a radian is angle between two lines that intersect he center of a circle and two points on the circumference of the circle at a distance equal one radius along the circumference.

60 is simply the number of seconds in one minute.

So that's revoltions per minute. See those gymnastic Raptor. 8) I can juggle thes small balls (of equations)all day. but the practical visualtion of how the engine works will always lead you to power being the king, you just choose where you want it.
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xxChrisxx
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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n smikle wrote:
Acceleration through time is basically applying a force over the given distance you are accelerating. ie Work. By definiton you can do more work by having more power.
Not true. You can do more work with LESS power but it will take you longer.
That's tautological, as it's the definiton of power. P = W/T.

As acceleration is time dependent consider:

W = Fd
F = ma
W = mad (kekeke).
A = W/md.

As we consider the same car accelerating over the same distance the m and d can be grouped to constant 'k'.

A = kW
A ~ W (acceleration is directly proportional to work required)

Further (from the definition of power) and as we are considering the same event we can set t = anything.

P = W/t
P ~ W

So we can say

P ~ A

Power is propotional to acceleration, Which I think you'll aree with.

However we can also say:
Some of this true.. but what you want is more power across the rev band. An engine with more torque at lower RPM is simply as a RESULT of it making more POWER at low rpm. It's all about power, where it acts and timing(control) of that power.
P = Tw

This is the function relating power to torque. Mathematically it does not state that one causes the other, only that P is identical to Tw.

This is the reason why is is just as correct to say that acceleration is determined by torque output, and acceleration is determined by power output.

Also why it's equally as absurd to say that power causes torque OR torque causes power.

EDIT: This is obviously in context of IC engines. As stated above Power is work /time. In the case of a reciprocating engine the work is torque.

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Might as well be arguing which is more important in a meal - taste or flavor.
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xxChrisxx
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Jersey Tom wrote:Might as well be arguing which is more important in a meal - taste or flavor.
I'm clearly stealing that analogy. :lol:

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Jersey Tom wrote:Might as well be arguing which is more important in a meal - taste or flavor.
Taste. You can't get flavour without taste right.. Your engine won;t make torque without power. Simple as that.
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xxChrisxx
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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n smikle wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote:Might as well be arguing which is more important in a meal - taste or flavor.
Taste. You can't get flavour without taste right.. Your engine won;t make torque without power. Simple as that.
Deleted. Nevermind.

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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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n smikle wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote:Might as well be arguing which is more important in a meal - taste or flavor.
. .. Your engine won;t make torque without power. Simple as that.
.
The opposite..
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Image
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Belatti
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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chicken-egg story or catch 22 here...

I really cant get why is this being disscussed so hard, when both are related by a simple ecuation, one is a force time distance and the other, an energy used in a period of time...

If we have a 1000Kg F1 car and a 1000Kg Diesel Tractor, with the F1 twice the max power and the tractor 4 times the torque, wich one do you think that would accelerate faster?
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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Belatti wrote:chicken-egg story or catch 22 here...

I really cant get why is this being disscussed so hard, when both are related by a simple ecuation, one is a force time distance and the other, an energy used in a period of time...

If we have a 1000Kg F1 car and a 1000Kg Diesel Tractor, with the F1 twice the max power and the tractor 4 times the torque, wich one do you think that would accelerate faster?
Give me a graph of the Power vs rpm or Torque vs rpm. And give me the gear ratios. That's still doesn't decide anything.
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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xxChrisxx wrote:
n smikle wrote:
Acceleration through time is basically applying a force over the given distance you are accelerating. ie Work. By definiton you can do more work by having more power.
Not true. You can do more work with LESS power but it will take you longer.
That's tautological, as it's the definiton of power. P = W/T.

As acceleration is time dependent consider:

W = Fd
F = ma
W = mad (kekeke).
A = W/md.

As we consider the same car accelerating over the same distance the m and d can be grouped to constant 'k'.

A = kW
A ~ W (acceleration is directly proportional to work required)

Further (from the definition of power) and as we are considering the same event we can set t = anything.

P = W/t
P ~ W

So we can say

P ~ A

Power is propotional to acceleration, Which I think you'll aree with.

However we can also say:
Some of this true.. but what you want is more power across the rev band. An engine with more torque at lower RPM is simply as a RESULT of it making more POWER at low rpm. It's all about power, where it acts and timing(control) of that power.
P = Tw

This is the function relating power to torque. Mathematically it does not state that one causes the other, only that P is identical to Tw.

This is the reason why is is just as correct to say that acceleration is determined by torque output, and acceleration is determined by power output.

Also why it's equally as absurd to say that power causes torque OR torque causes power.

EDIT: This is obviously in context of IC engines. As stated above Power is work /time. In the case of a reciprocating engine the work is torque.

I didn't realy read all of that, because I know what I am talking about 100%

Answer these simple questions then.

1. Where does the torque come from in the piston engine? (trace it right back to the intake and fuel)

2. How efficient is the typical IC Petrol engine?

3. Where does the.... REST OF the UNUSED POWER.... go to?

Belatti wrote:chicken-egg story or catch 22 here...

I really cant get why is this being disscussed so hard, when both are related by a simple ecuation, one is a force time distance and the other, an energy used in a period of time...
It's not chicken an egg that is why. You can engineer you way from the contact patch of the tyre, all the way back to the intake air charge and the fuel injectors - it is all about power - fine tune your combustion and your gas flows at any rpm you want.
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Belatti
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Re: Torque and Horsepower - A Primer

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n smikle wrote: Give me a graph of the Power vs rpm or Torque vs rpm. And give me the gear ratios. That's still doesn't decide anything.
Any gear ratios you want...
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna