Have Ferrari found a loophole in engine freeze?

[Scotracer]

I wouldn't say that longer intake (or exhaust) primaries gives you "more torque" and that shorter gives you "more power."

IMO from experience.. exhaust and cams have more impact than intake, but.. even then..

Longer intake and exhaust runners gives you more torque at low RPM. Shorter intake and exhaust runners (and more valve overlap) gives you more torque at high RPM.

The amount of torque the engine can produce at 100% VE is mostly going to be determined by fuel, combustion chamber design, bore/stroke, BMEP, etc.

Valvetrain, intake, and exhaust determine where that torque is most available, since volumetric efficiency is speed sensitive.

Torque and power are very, very closely related. Power is to a degree just a measure of where that engine torque is available. Since they're not really that different they're both equally as important. Power though is really the ability to do work and the ability to get as much energy into your vehicle as possible.

My Nissan 350 probably puts out as much peak torque as an F1 engine. Maybe even more. But in no way would I be capable of beating a grand prix car in just about any maneuver conceivable, since the F1 engine can place that torque so high in the RPM band, and through gearing can develop outrageous amounts of torque at the wheels.

Power, torque, gearing.. all equally as important.

At Monaco, getting lots of power down out of slow corners is important. Best way to do that is just by gearing. Making the torque come on lower would have the same effect and would make the car a bit more "street"-like, but you'd lose that top end at the outright ability for the car to develop heaps of power.

Good post, I agree. Your final point seems most relevant to the Monaco GP. If you look at the speed trap results, the Ferraris are no where to be seen but in general lap times they are ominously fast. I guess the cars have been optimised for torque, rather than peak power. On the other hand, the Mclaren is the fastest in all speed traps and it is quite apparent most of its power comes in at higher rpms (loads of high rev instances, looking at on board footage, as well as much more wheelspin in 1st through 3rd).

[pgj]

It is ironic that in making reliability improvements, Ferrari have made their engine less reliable.

[wesley123]

It is ironic that in making reliability improvements, Ferrari have made their engine less reliable.

Thats why i allways thuoght ferrari abused the fact they were allowed to change the engine due to reliability.
1. The cars top speed exceed others by 3km/h last year they werent at the top and were like 3km/h slower, someone who can think knows that you cant gain 6km/h topspeed by only changing the nose and a few winglets.
2. all the ferrari engines are found in the top 8, FI was last year by far lastest on topspeed but now they are in the top 8 every time with an nearly improved car.
3. RBR and STR have the same chassis, only different engines. Webber complains about the power while the power is the same as last year.
4. The reliability became worse.

If they found an hole in the rules then the FIA should have other teams allowed to add 25 hp power to their engines to keep it fair.

[nae]

fair ?
F1

lol

[TRICKLE69]

How can you say to gift the other teams 25 horse ??!!!! You must be out of your mind !! If FERRARI or any other team has found a way to develop their engine because of a loophole they should be praised. Rules are made to be bent/broken and that is the name of the game in F1. Dont be mad because FERRARI is stomping everybody else!!!

[mx_tifoso]

Exactly, the FIA sets the regulations for the teams to follow and interpret. Some teams may choose to interpret them more loosely than others, therefore gaining an advantage. If one team decided to reduce the resources, human or not, and limit their development than they are at fault- since no one forced them to do so. If one chose to continue the same rate of development than great, competitors should not be pointing any fingers for supposed infringement.

Besides, if one decided to continue developing a somewhat restricted area, and is now suffering because of that, why does anyone continue complaining?

Theres nothing wrong with developing the engine if the FIA approved such actions. That should be enough, making the approval from competitors unnecessary.

IMO.

[wesley123]

Yes the FIA allowed ferrari to do so, but to increase the reliability.
Has the engine become more reliable? No.
The top speeds of the ferraris are now 3km/h faster then the rest while last year they were most time slower. that 4-7km/h cant be made by aerodynamics, and certainly not after what changes ferrari made; raising its nose and that weird things on it and longer chimneys, that was all that ferrari changed at the launch. A higher nose with weird things on it certainly decrease drag but this change cant cause the cars to have 4-7km/h higher top speeds.

How can you say to gift the other teams 25 horse ??!!!! You must be out of your mind !! If FERRARI or any other team has found a way to develop their engine because of a loophole they should be praised. Rules are made to be bent/broken and that is the name of the game in F1. Dont be mad because FERRARI is stomping everybody else!!!

That isnt my problem, but ferrari increased the engines power when the fia approved to modify the engine due to reliability. did the engine become more reliable? no. So while other teams cut cost on the engines(where it was ment for) Ferrari simply is allowed to increase their engines power without getting punished for it. And IF Ferrari found an loophole, why doesnt the other teams make use of it? explain that, when ferrari found a loophole by bending the frontwing down in the center everybody immediately started doing the same, so why shouldnt the teams do it now as they can find 25 more horsepowers wich means 7km/h more topspeed and the laptimes increased by 0.3 of a second. I never saw an team not taking that 0.3 second. In a sport where 0.01 of a second is a huge gain, then people seriousely take that 0.3 second.

[mx_tifoso]

How can you say to gift the other teams 25 horse ??!!!! You must be out of your mind !! If FERRARI or any other team has found a way to develop their engine because of a loophole they should be praised. Rules are made to be bent/broken and that is the name of the game in F1. Dont be mad because FERRARI is stomping everybody else!!!

That isnt my problem, but ferrari increased the engines power when the fia approved to modify the engine due to reliability. did the engine become more reliable? no. So while other teams cut cost on the engines(where it was ment for) Ferrari simply is allowed to increase their engines power without getting punished for it. And IF Ferrari found an loophole, why doesnt the other teams make use of it? explain that, when ferrari found a loophole by bending the frontwing down in the center everybody immediately started doing the same, so why shouldnt the teams do it now as they can find 25 more horsepowers wich means 7km/h more topspeed and the laptimes increased by 0.3 of a second. I never saw an team not taking that 0.3 second.

What if along with modifications to reliablity came improvements in output? That's a probable 'consequence' of such improvements.

Every engine manufacturer has the ability to modify their engine for reliablilty purposes, if the FIA permits them. Ferrari and McLaren are two supposed teams to have taken advantage of that, others are/where welcome to do so as well, if they didn't when they had the opportunity they shouldn't be tutored by the ones who did on how to improve their engines. Remember; survival of the fittest.

The engine freeze was meant to [mainly] reduce developmental costs in the powertrain area, not necessarily in the human resources department- which ultimately affects developoment rate as well. So engine development is still permitted, albeit at a very restricted level.

[megz]

Don't forget too that before Ferrari can do ANYTHING to modify the internals of the engine a letter must be sent to the FIA which gets sent to ALL other teams and the modification must get UNANIMOUS (or majority?) support from the other teams before the modifications go ahead. Er... Anyone could copy Ferrari's changes then more or less.

This would lead me to believe coolant/lubricant/fuel improvements.

[MattF1]

Ross Brawn sort said something in Friday's press conference that only the engine was frozen, and they can change fuel, oil etc. He basically said that if you use new fuel, can you modify the engine to be more reliable with it.

[donskar]

Good point, MattF1.

I recall back in the 3.5L V12 days, Shell made a change to their fuel blend that was reported to increase Ferrari power by 10-12 HP. I would think we'd applaud the use of more effective fuels and lubricants. Oil, for example. doesn't increase power in one sense - it simply allows the engine to deliver more of its power to the wheels. I also recall reading that another goal of the fuel "designers" is to reduce weight per gallon. Can anyone add anything on that point?

[casper]

Increase of power produced by a fuel blend is done by increasing the Octane Number. A few thumb full of toluene or benzene will do the rick. Maybe the refueling rig has a hidden coaxial storage compartment and toluene is added when refueling. by pressing a hidden switch, the compartment door opens. See this design.
http://www.biofuelsystems.com/pipemixers.htm

This is not called cheating, but being inventive!. :^o [-X

[TRICKLE69]

Increase of power produced by a fuel blend is done by increasing the Octane Number. A few thumb full of toluene or benzene will do the rick. Maybe the refueling rig has a hidden coaxial storage compartment and toluene is added when refueling. by pressing a hidden switch, the compartment door opens. See this design.
http://www.biofuelsystems.com/pipemixers.htm

This is not called cheating, but being inventive!. :^o [-X

The refueling rigs are made by an outside manufacturer from the airplane refueling industry. The teams are in no way allowed to even fix a fuel rig, never mind modify it. [-X

[alexbarwell]

Its only half the challenge to make a more powerful engine, the other half is reliability. If the pre-freeze design was a bit flawed but powerful, so could not actually run it flat out over a race, then develop reliability into it then they have in spirit gone against the notion of the freeze in that they can get the greater power for a longer period. The idea that there is nothing stopping other teams from investing heavily is bogus as this got us to the predicament - if this attitude of disregarding a gentlemans agreement to reduce costs is continued then the sorry state of the FIA imposing strict regulations seems inevitable. Lots of other industries that failed to reulate themselves are now faced with something much worse.