McLaren - A picture of harmony

[segedunum]

Is this based on facts or personal opinion?

Facts. McLaren were adamant that the tyres wouldn't have lasted and Hamilton clearly thought, with hindsight mind you, that he should have stayed out. He can't have his cake and eat it under these new rules.

Perhaps your own interpretation of things are somewhat skewed due to your affinity with a certain driver or team? Surely not!

Off-topic and utterly meaningless with reference to what we're discussing. Clearly you're someone who has no experience of watching Formula 1 before refuelling, or can't remember it, or you just don't want to see what's in front of you because of your own personal affiliations.

When people have nothing left to defend their side of the discussion they try and find something else that they think they can use to devalue, not what a person says or writes mind you, but that person themself. Poor.

[lebesset]

how about starting a poll here

here's the scenario
team says to hamilton ...cars that have changed are at least a second faster ...you are not catching kubica at the moment ...weather looks dry to the end ... not much in the decision , your choice

what would lewis have opted for ?

and the team were NOT certain that the tyres at the time whether or not the tyres would have lasted ...in fact they weren't even certain afterwards !

[Belatti]

*pic of troll*

Was that directed at anyone in particular, or should I expand my reply a bit?

The style on interaction between engineers and drivers I am sure differs quite a bit. We've all heard of Rob Smedley's call to Massa, its always more instructional, where as some would be more consultation style....

No man, sorry. The pic was just for the whole thread.

[Hangaku]

Facts. McLaren were adamant that the tyres wouldn't have lasted and Hamilton clearly thought, with hindsight mind you, that he should have stayed out.

This "fact" that you have just stated has nothing to do with your original statement.

Poor.

What is poor, is your constant biased nonsense.

[segedunum]

This "fact" that you have just stated has nothing to do with your original statement.

You're talking nonsense now in the hope that you can cloud the issue.

Hamilton obviously agreed with the decision at the time it was made, there were no complaints when he was steaming up to the back of Alonso for an overtake, and only then when he got stuck and his tyres went off again did he start complaining.

Martin Whitmarsh has made McLaren's views on this absolutely crystal clear - those tyres wouldn't have lasted. Take it up with him.

There is really no more to be said on this. Close the thread.

What is poor, is your constant biased nonsense.

Then you're going to have to discuss it rationally and prove it as such. If you're simply upset at what's been written then no one can help you and it's fruitless to do it here.

[Just_a_fan]

I'm amused by the short memories being displayed by some in here. Talk of Button being the "complete racing driver" and being more experienced / laid back etc. whilst Hamilton displays immaturity by moaning on the radio.

Has everyone forgotten that Button is the same man who, in the second half of last year, was moaning on the radio about how crap the car suddenly was whilst Rubens was doing better than him? "How can this car be so bad now?" springs to mind as one such moan.

Button drove well in Oz, having taken a gamble on a tyre change. A call he was forced to make because the inters weren't working for him at all.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I'm going to chirp in because there was a radio transmission that I haven’t seen any comments on in any threads. I think this is as good a place as any to illustrate a point with it. I'm not bashing Lewis, so don't read any antagonism into this comment. Right after Lewis got up to speed with his primes after his last stop, a radio exchange went something like this:

Engineer: "Ferrari 17 seconds in front of you with tire degradation"

Lewis: "They have to pit"!

Engineer: "They don't have to pit"!

Lewis should have known it was a rain race and everyone started on some form of rain tire.
Just a small thing with a hectic race going on around him, plus it doesn't change the outcome.
It's just something that leads me to believe he was distracted (for any and all reasons).
It's something a Hamilton should, and would know but the distractions of the weekend caught him out in this arena, just the least little bit!
It was still a tremendous drive by the Boss.
Just a minor glitch in an otherwise very harmonious relationship!

[lebesset]

well I have a long memory , and I remember button driving around for years in slow cars with hardly a whimper because he could see there was nothing to do about it ; so when he could see that there was something more to be done he was unhappy ...so ?

and hamilton obviously agreed with the change of tyres ? how was he in a position to work out the strategy , that's the team's job ...he was not happy when it became clear it wasn't the correct call , when he comes up behind the ferrari's he needed to be 3+ seconds faster to pass, and he was never going to be was he ...tyres are shot was just a knee jerk reaction

buttons call was totally different , in motor racing terms everybody's tyres were shot , ie they were on the wrong tyre for the conditions ; jenson's judgement was just superior , that's all , he thought slicks would be faster in the conditions and backed his judgement ; mind you , as wellington said at the battle of waterloo , it was a damned nice thing

[Just_a_fan]

I'm going to chirp in because there was a radio transmission that I haven’t seen any comments on in any threads. I think this is as good a place as any to illustrate a point with it. I'm not bashing Lewis, so don't read any antagonism into this comment. Right after Lewis got up to speed with his primes after his last stop, a radio exchange went something like this:

Engineer: "Ferrari 17 seconds in front of you with tire degradation"

Lewis: "They have to pit"!

Engineer: "They don't have to pit"!

Lewis should have known it was a rain race and everyone started on some form of rain tire.
Just a small thing with a hectic race going on around him, plus it doesn't change the outcome.
It's just something that leads me to believe he was distracted (for any and all reasons).
It's something a Hamilton should, and would know but the distractions of the weekend caught him out in this arena, just the least little bit!
It was still a tremendous drive by the Boss.
Just a minor glitch in an otherwise very harmonious relationship!

I heard that too. At the time, I thought that Hamilton was asking if the Ferraris had to pit but it could just have been an exasperated comment as you suggest.

It's one of the funny things about F1 - a guy can drive an absolute blinder of a stint and get very little for it. Hamilton and Webber's "twenty seconds in 10 laps chase" was a joy to watch and was the highlight of what would, otherwise, have been a fairly boring race once the initial tyre changes were done. The "will they / won't they" was what makes a race interesting.

[lebesset]

that's funny ,when I heard it I thought he said ...they have to pit?

[ringo]

well I have a long memory , and I remember button driving around for years in slow cars with hardly a whimper because he could see there was nothing to do about it ; so when he could see that there was something more to be done he was unhappy ...so ?

and hamilton obviously agreed with the change of tyres ? how was he in a position to work out the strategy , that's the team's job ...he was not happy when it became clear it wasn't the correct call , when he comes up behind the ferrari's he needed to be 3+ seconds faster to pass, and he was never going to be was he ...tyres are shot was just a knee jerk reaction

buttons call was totally different , in motor racing terms everybody's tyres were shot , ie they were on the wrong tyre for the conditions ; jenson's judgement was just superior , that's all , he thought slicks would be faster in the conditions and backed his judgement ; mind you , as wellington said at the battle of waterloo , it was a damned nice thing

Thank you
This makes sense. If the team doesn't know the tyres how in the world should the driver who is focusing 100% on driving the car calculate what everyone else is doing, when he is going to pass them and what rate the tyres are degrading?
His best interest is to trust the team of engineers. A driver can tell how his tyres are doing at the moment, but he cannot tell how well they will do over 20 laps, with fuel load going down, change in track temps, tyre temps etc. No way at all, and I am not buying segundrum's idea that drivers out there do these things especially when they are in the middle of a fight.

[ringo]

You know what, lets just wait for Malaysia. This tyre "care" myth is going too far.

[sticky667]

It sort of reminds me of the time when Brundle saw Schumacher in front of him once, saw the state of his rear tyres and then decided to pit based on that.

actually Brundle passed when MSC went off on the grass, MSC saw the tires and pit, and subsequently won the race with that call.

[segedunum]

You know, I notice something here and it's the reticence of engineering oriented people to understand the role a driver plays. We had it when McLaren said they produced a 'neutral' car when people couldn't understand how one car could favour another and we have it here when people just can't understand how one driver can look after his tyres better than another.

Given all the races that we've witnessed over the years, the races we had before refuelling came in sixteen years ago and the victories of people like Alain Prost, I can't believe that some people don't believe that actually happens. Only a driver decides how fast he can go, only a driver can control how much he moves the car around and only a driver knows how much understeer or oversteer he has and only he can tell how much grip he is getting from the tyres.

To dismiss driver input under these circumstances is just......a bit insane, and goes against every piece of evidence we have had in these kinds of races since the days of yore.

[autogyro]

You know, I notice something here and it's the reticence of engineering oriented people to understand the role a driver plays. We had it when McLaren said they produced a 'neutral' car when people couldn't understand how one car could favour another and we have it here when people just can't understand how one driver can look after his tyres better than another.

Given all the races that we've witnessed over the years, the races we had before refuelling came in sixteen years ago and the victories of people like Alain Prost, I can't believe that some people don't believe that actually happens. Only a driver decides how fast he can go, only a driver can control how much he moves the car around and only a driver knows how much understeer or oversteer he has and only he can tell how much grip he is getting from the tyres.

To dismiss driver input under these circumstances is just......a bit insane, and goes against every piece of evidence we have had in these kinds of races since the days of yore.

+1