David vs. Goliath(Red Bull vs. Ferrari), myth or truth?

[xpensive]

I still use A3-size millimeter-paper, a 2 mm mitsubishi pencil, sharpener, soft rubber and a circle template to make
layouts from where my ProE guys and girls can take it.

As for the Renault lacking top end power, I recall Bernard Dudot willingly agree to that fact already in the early 90s,
but xplained that this was a sacrifice they were happy to make in order to gain "driveability", whatever that is.

[donskar]

Back to Newey one last time, I recall he was credited with (one of) the very first "raised nose" designs way back when -- it was just a little step in the lower nose of one of his very early F1 cars. Someone have a better memory than me?

[xpensive]

It was a light-blue March, or Leyton House, in the early 90s.

[gridwalker]

I've just been looking through Newey-designed marches and Leyton Houses, but couldn't find any raised noses : do you have a photo? I am curious ...

[timbo]

Back to Newey one last time, I recall he was credited with (one of) the very first "raised nose" designs way back when -- it was just a little step in the lower nose of one of his very early F1 cars. Someone have a better memory than me?

Yes it was. But back then you could see that all other cars (except Tyrrell obviously) had a floor that extended to the tip of the nosecone.
Actually Newey was among the last guys staying with that nose configuration.

[gridwalker]

Found it :

[xpensive]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see Newey as one of the true innovators of new weapons, but one hell of a sword-sharpener.
Once Barnard got wind of the idea, he walked the whole nine yards with the glorious B191-92.

Anyway, I can still recall watching Ivan Capelli(!) leading Alain Prost's 641 in that March/Leyton House-Judd in France 1990.

[segedunum]

I'd like to see Dudot saying that they were sacrificing power for 'driveability'. The Renault was the most powerful engine out there in the early and mid-nineties. Newey's modus operandi of development was to keep adding useable downforce on to the car and if anyone raised objections about drag he pointed to the engine people and said "What are they doing?" He obviously can't do that now with the engine homologation which is why he's having a whinge about it.

Newey was rather late to the raised nose game. He was pretty much pushed into it for the 1995 Williams by the performance of the B194, although the 1994 Williams was designed to get air around the nose and underneath the car. As soon as he got to McLaren he was the first to start lowering it again. It's almost as if he wants to purposefully restrict the car and himself and try and be as efficient with the air he has available unless the numbers clearly tell him otherwise.

[xpensive]

Wish I could find that quote somewhere, but it was around 91-92 when Honda had launched their big fat V12 with top end power way ahead of everybody, but not much else to bragg about. Big, heavy and with a powerband which only Senna could like.

[Blackout]

But worst of all is this never ending bs about having an inferior engine to the Mercedes...first of all, I don't think it is,
secondly if Newey really wanted FI's engine contract, I'm fairly certain that Mateschitz would make it happen.

The RB runs the Renault engine because Newey wanted the Renault engine. I've been told that it has the best heat rejection of any unit on the grid which, for Newey's design philosophy, is more important than a few % possible bhp deficit.

Yes but the RS26, witch became RS27, was also one of the the most powerful V8 in 2006... It was even the most powerful ccording to many sources, Giorgio Piola for example...

[timbo]

Wish I could find that quote somewhere, but it was around 91-92 when Honda had launched their big fat V12 with top end power way ahead of everybody, but not much else to bragg about. Big, heavy and with a powerband which only Senna could like.

I read that Senna complained about power of his V12 at early 1991. They caught at the end of the season though. And they made a special version at the end of 1992.

[xpensive]

In early 1991, Senna also said this about his MP4-XX; "They didn't want me to drive a Ferrari, so they tried to build me one".
The Honda engineers got pretty busy after that piece, why in 1992 he beat Mansell's hi-tech Williams on sheer power.

[segedunum]

I can remember Honda's silly obsession with creating a V12 around that time. The problem was that if it ever was more powerful than the Renault V10 it didn't show it. I don't recall it being terribly handy at Hockenheim or Spa in a way that would make the V12 worth it.

I would like to have seen that Lamborghini V12 in the 1993 McLaren though. I can't fathom why Ron Dennis didn't just look at the numbers and grab the power when it was on offer rather than entering into some silly deal with Peugot. I would have demanded that Peugot made something at least as verifiably good or I'd walk.

Mind you, there were some changes Senna got them to make to that engine where it lost top end power but gained in the lower powerbands so maybe Dudot was on to something. A lack of top-end power when you need it is something you can't hide though.

[segedunum]

Yes but the RS26, witch became RS27, was also one of the the most powerful V8 in 2006... It was even the most powerful ccording to many sources, Giorgio Piola for example...

Well, it's clearly not now. If you're dominating races and then you simply fall away at Spa and especially Monza then there's one reason and one reason only for it.

[xpensive]

I would like to have seen that Lamborghini V12 in the 1993 McLaren though. I can't fathom why Ron Dennis didn't just look at the numbers and grab the power when it was on offer rather than entering into some silly deal with Peugot. I would have demanded that Peugot made something at least as verifiably good or I'd walk.
...

This was indeed one of Ron's stranger decisions. After a hybrid McLaren Lamborghini was more than a second faster around Silverstone than the regular MP4 with Ford, while Senna was eager to race it, he still mysteriously turned Chrysler's offer down.

Therory was that he was so obsessed with Williams success with it's "French connection", that he thought Peugeot would not enter without being certain to beat the other French manufacturer. How wrong things can go, luckily enough, he could steal Sauber's works deal with Mercedes just like that a year later.

Back on topic, with the money and clout of the Red Bull Brand, I can see RBR teaming up with VW futurewise.