Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

Going back to the strategy call, obviously Ferrari thought that Petrov and Rosberg could be overtaken. In that case, it logically follows that Webber would overtake them at some point. I even think this would have actually happened, as Alsonso (and Hamilton) found themselves stuck behind cars behaving similarly to theirs but with higher top speed, while Webber, while looking even worse in top speed, had advantages in corners and braking areas.
So asuming Webber would pass people in front, where was Alonso at the time... right behind Button. Button should be effectively unpassable, and he wouldn't pit, he had to protect Hamilton and force others into strategic mistakes. In many races, Button lost loads of time to Hamilton, so Ferrari thought they were facing a fast Webber and a slow Button... something had to be done! (Waiting for Button to pit first risked Alonso being stranded in fifht with Vettel in first, and in any case, they risked him having both Red Bulls in front of him, after which many interesting things could start to happen).
Of course we all know now that it was the wrong call to make, but I remember being in a chat with a friend at the time, watching the race and the timing screens, and concluding that they had to pit Alonso NOW!
It wasn't such an easy decision, and I doubt it precipitated Dyer's departure, at least not by itself. The news were announced just aster the 1st of January, and hence the timing had more to do with dates in contracts than with anything else.
TANSTAAFL

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

donskar wrote:OK, this has descended into another irrational Ferrari-haters festival. I'm done.
Actually the discussion is quite rational, I see very little hate if any.

We're trying to figure out why Ferrari is having so many problems compared to before Brawn/Todt left.

I was very impressed how they managed to develop the car and get the EBD working so well, which Mclaren never quite got right, even if they managed to sneak in a test at Fiorano guised as promotional filming.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

segedunum
segedunum
0
Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

donskar wrote:OK, this has descended into another irrational Ferrari-haters festival. I'm done.
OK. A typical Ferrari fan doesn't like what he's hearing and so is going home. Fine.

I don't know any way in which you can't see this as some form of blame-pinning and irrational knee-jerking. As far as I know only one guy, Chris Dyer, is taking the hit for this. Notice that he isn't Italian, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence. :roll:

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
-1
Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

Giblet wrote:
We're trying to figure out why Ferrari is having so many problems compared to before Brawn/Todt left.
Well i guess the fact that Brawn/Todt et al left would explain that. Not that hard to figure out.

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
-1
Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

andrew wrote:It looks like most (if not all) of the sensible high-ups in the F1 team have left. Ferrari have now fully returned to idiotic knee-jerk decisions made with the heart ruling the head that was common pre-1996. Saw this coming as soon as they signed Alonso and I wouldn't be surprised if Ferrari shortly announce Briatore as a new team member (I guess that would be a lot of bad eggs in one red basket).
Tombazis still remains from the Shumacher era. Costa aswell, but I am not convinced of him. Alonso certainly isn't the problem, so you perhaps you can put that little agenda aside for once.
Surely the way to learn from a mistake is to look thoroughly at what happened, learn from it and move on but keep stability in the team. It looks like Dyer has well and truely been made a scapegoat and the knee-jerk reaction has been made of replacing him.
Completely agree. Also it's surprising given the comments that Domenicalli and LDM made after the race.
To my mind, a key question has yet to be answered - why could Alonso, an experienced driver and twice WDC, could not outwit a rookie in a slower car at a track where passing is possible. Dominicelli has always struck me as a bit of a gutless wonder (thus why the point has not really been raised I guess) who is more concerned about accusing other teams of having illeagal cars during the season and PR than efficent team management (using Jean Todt and Ross Brawn as examples of excellent team managers).
I think your question probably has been answered. It wasn't a case of Alonso trying to outwit Petrov, he never got into a position where he could pass Petrov. Sure passing was possible on the track (the same way passing is possible on a track like Hungaroring), it certainly wasn't very easy. It's the same way Vettel couldn't pass Alonso at Hungary despite having a car that was over a second faster.

On Domenicalli, certainly he has some big flaws, but i think it was Whitmarsh who was more obsessed with accussing other teams of having illegal cars.

andrew
andrew
0
Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

No agenda against Alonso here. Sure I don't have a high opinion of him but leaving that aside for this thread, the fact still remains he couldn't pass a rookie in a slower car. Alonso was particly pushing Petrov but was unable to pass. For me, this question has not been answered by Ferrari or Alonso.

It's like football - a team looses a couple games they replace the manager or the coach, but not the players. Madness!

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
-1
Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

andrew wrote:No agenda against Alonso here. Sure I don't have a high opinion of him but leaving that aside for this thread, the fact still remains he couldn't pass a rookie in a slower car. Alonso was particly pushing Petrov but was unable to pass. For me, this question has not been answered by Ferrari or Alonso.

It's like football - a team looses a couple games they replace the manager or the coach, but not the players. Madness!
It was pretty clear that the Renault was faster on the straight and also seemed to have fairly good traction coming out of slow corners. Plus you had a track which is not ideal for overtaking and the general problems of overtaking in F1. Alonso was always within a second of Petrov but he never really got close enough to make a legitimate passing attempt. Hamilton had the same problems with Kubica.

andrew
andrew
0
Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

There are several opportunities for passing at Abu Dhabi. Maybe the Renault was getting better traction but a seasoned driver should have been able to make a "do or die" move. Making an engineer a scapegoat is just pure pathetic.

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

Also Andrew, the more you try, the worse your tires get. While trying to pass a Renault with a driver that is on fire and driving defensively for his career, and being chased by a Red Bull with championship aspirations, you try to defend the guy behind, and set yourself to pass the guy in front.

It's not an easy combination, and gets worse as the race progresses. Alonso is one of the best passers around, and I am sure if he would have he could of.

No matter how you slice it, or who you wanna blame, 5 drivers trying to win the title in the last race means 4 guys are not going to win it. A series of events and circumstances lost Ferrari the title, and it was a perfect storm of a bad call compounded with the factors on track.

Like most things, nobody can be blamed fully, but Alonso was put in a position that was far from ideal and expected to more than asked usually.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
-1
Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

andrew wrote:There are several opportunities for passing at Abu Dhabi. Maybe the Renault was getting better traction but a seasoned driver should have been able to make a "do or die" move. Making an engineer a scapegoat is just pure pathetic.
There seems to be, at best, 2 opportunities to pass on the circuit.

He did try a "do or die" move, and it didn't work, he ended up going across the chicane and was lucky not to lose a place to Webber. When there's no opportunity to pass, it's not as simple as simply going late on the brakes and diving up the inside, no matter how good or experienced you are.

andrew
andrew
0
Joined: 16 Feb 2010, 15:08
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

Only one attempt? Not very good really.

Ferrari seem to have taken the easy option andblame Dyer rather than going for a sensible analysis and learn from what went wrong.

Gerhard Berger
Gerhard Berger
-1
Joined: 20 Sep 2010, 11:17

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

andrew wrote:Only one attempt? Not very good really.
Like i said, pretty hard to simply dive up the inside of someone when you are never close enough to them on the straight.
Ferrari seem to have taken the easy option andblame Dyer rather than going for a sensible analysis and learn from what went wrong.
Definitely. Like someone else said (think it was you) the decision to sack Dyer reminds of their pre 96/97 days. Continuity is what is needed. The mistake had big consequences, but the decision seemed fairly understandable at the time. Very harsh indeed, and not the direction Ferrari should be going in.

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

Gerhard Berger wrote: Well i guess the fact that Brawn/Todt et al left would explain that. Not that hard to figure out.

I believe you are mixing up cause and effect.

Them leaving did not cause the problems, they were caused by the people that succeeded them, and I wonder what they did/didn't do different in their processes and way of leading the team that was has lead to a somewhat changed Ferrari at it's core.

Technically they seem to be quick on their feet, and truly understand their car, but towards the end of the season the team reminded me more of a bunch of crazed football fans cheering and hoping and trying to dig deep, instead of systematically planning what to do and doing it in regards to the core values and ideas that worked so well for them for so long.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

I thought Ferrari did well this season, especially with their EBD development. Overall performance of the car and team was comparable with McL and in some cases ahead. Certainly not a case of the wheels falling off.

However, it is interesting to read of the people coming and going, so keep up the discussion please!

User avatar
siskue2005
70
Joined: 11 May 2007, 21:50

Re: Ferrari - Chris Dyer pays for the Abu Dhabi strategy

Post

Gerhard Berger wrote:
Giblet wrote:
We're trying to figure out why Ferrari is having so many problems compared to before Brawn/Todt left.
Well i guess the fact that Brawn/Todt et al left would explain that. Not that hard to figure out.
And the reason Brawn/Todt were almost always victorious with their call is that they had a driver (Schumy) who can workout almost anything thrown at him.
Remember France 2004, Hungary 1998 etc etc
Mostly these 3 would cover up for each other.

Imagine Ferrari throwing a 4 stop strategy to Alonso, all we could see is Alonso fist waving at the pit wall every lap :lol: