McLaren engine in the future?

[Pup]

Jeezus, I never claimed anything about the McLaren press release other than to say it was an official press release - I'm not even sure I said that much, go back and check yourself if you're not too lazy.

Mercedes can't just quit a partnership unilaterally. They had to get McLaren to agree, so they had to give them something in return - a sweet guaranteed deal on engines, for example. End of.

As for the bait - sorry, "lies" - you list - I'll spare us all the argument over those, and instead just point out that Mercedes owned precisely 40% of them. I see no reason to trust Mercedes over McLaren, or vice versa. But I'm not even saying that Merc lied. I'm not even saying that they misworded their press release. The fact that both press releases can be true at once doesn't seem to sink in with you.

It seems that your argument -whatever it is, I still don't know - hinges on your opinion that McLaren are not just liars, but so compulsively so that they can't possibly write a true word. Face it, your argument is entirely based on the fact that you don't want them to have a guaranteed engine supply. It's a bit worrisome, your hatred of the team. Unhealthy.

And the fact that you started posting numbered rebuttals accusing people and corporations of lying concerning one single word in a year old press release, after only two posts is...weird.

[WhiteBlue]

Many words to escape a simple truth...

[Martin Keene]

I thought the 12C engine was bespoke McLaren? Anyone got the source to it being made by Ricardo?

http://tinyurl.com/4c77twp

It is bespoke. It is made by Ricardo.

Probably all the car's components will be bespoke. I expect all the components are made by specialist external suppliers. They don't even do the carbon fibre themselves, that's made in Austria.

http://www.reinforcedplastics.com/view/ ... orts-cars/

McLaren simply assemble the parts

They don't give you that impression when reading about it on their website, I had never heard of Ricardo till now! I even signed up for emails about the 12C and still no mention. And lol at the first link, classic.

It's more wide spread than you might imagine. At one point during the late 90's and early 2000's, BMW 7 Series, Mercedes S Class, Jaguar XJ all used the same ZF 6 speed auto. Things like gearboxes, ABS & traction systems, diffs, brakes, etc are now so complex the design and development is left upto the supplier. They have become know as Super Tier 1's, they are still a first tier supplier, but they own and a certain amount of the design and the IP.

It goes even further than that to, up until very recently, Porsche sub-contract the entire build of the Boster to an Austrian company called Magna Styer. Ford and VW did something similar with their MPV collaberation.

[Just_a_fan]

Ford and VW did something similar with their MPV collaberation.

And VW & Porsche with their respective 4x4s.

And then there are all of the companies that are part of larger groups that share stuff and even rename it to make it sound individual. VAG come to mind, Fiat do the same (Ferrari and Maserati share components, particularly engines from Ferrari).

In fact, I can't think of a main stream car maker who makes every part of their car themselves. Even the specialist little guys like Morgan and Bristol use other firms' engines. I would expect any small company in other countries to do the same really.

[gridwalker]

Sometimes it gets pretty hard to tell who shares parts with whom ...


(click for full res)

[Raptor22]

nice one, I wastyping up somehing similar in words but this is clearly MUCH BETTER

[Richard]

Aren't the Boxter & Cayenne are made by Valemt in Finland?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmet_Automotive

[747heavy]

Boxster & Cayman (Boxster Coupe if you like) are assembled by Velmet (untill 2012).
The Cayenne (joint venture with VW/Touareg)is produced in Leipzig/Germany - AFAIK.

As a side note the Boxster was the first Porsche to be built outside of Germany - IIRC.

And Porsche is one of the manufacturers with the highest component usage rate, most subsystems are from outside suppliers ( BOSCH, ZF Sachs etc. etc.)

It´s a fairly common practice these days, as others have allready said and pointed out, and will continue to be the prefered way.
I guess production deepth for most manufacturers is around 30-40% today. (means 60-70% of the parts used are not "made by ...xyz")

There is a lot of know how these days with the suppliers, and while engines are still one of the domains which automotive manufacturers are "proud of" and see as PoD (point of difference) from their opposition, the trend goes to joint ventures to achieve "critical mass" and lower cost, due to economics of scale.

See as an example cooperation between BMW and Peugeot of the Mini etc, and the future cooperation between BMW and Saab.

Today companies like "Mahle Powertrain" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAHLE_Powertrain) and others, develop "turn key" engines for there customers and not just pistons and other engine components.

The manufacturers are mainly concentrating on the "sales" side of the business (marketing & Brand positioning), not so much on the R&D of subcomponents.
Long gone are the times that a Mercedes (just as an example) was 100% Mercedes.

[McG]

Brilliant info. Love those pics. I knew some of the branche, like who FIAT own and VW own, but some interesting ones in there.

[gridwalker]

I just want to know which company has the logo that looks just like the Federation insignia from Star Trek (near the bottom of the white chart) ... the brand name is written in chinese, so I'm damned if I know who they are!

[747heavy]

looks like Changan - IMHO
http://www.changan.com.cn/

other chinese brands http://www.chinacarforums.com/chinese_c ... urers.html

but know, we should get back on topic.
I think establishing a "stand alone" engine devison is/will be an massive undertaking for McL.
Not sure, it would make much economic sense for them, epecially when we get another recession in the automotive industry in the future.
It´s one of the "advantages" of the "outsourcing" concept, part (or most) of the risk lies with the supplier(s).

[Alexgtt]

Wow! All extremely interesting. This thread has moved on but could we get back to the main talking point.

It would seem logical to me, as someone else pointed out, that Mclaren would chose and engine reg change point to start racing their "own" engine. The most likely route is aquisition of an existing race engine company or partnership with Ricardo. There is no doubt in my mind that a strong link up between Ricardo and McLaren is more than capable of designing and building top class race engines. It would fit very nicely with the new road car programe which also uses a highly efficient clean sheet turbo motor.

Quite what the ties and dodgy deals with Mercedes and the whole politics behind it are I have absolutely no knowledge of but you can bet there are get out clauses on both sides.

[CHT]

If Mclaren is not paying any money to Merc for their engine I think it will be a no brainer that Mclaren will continue using Merc and focus their resource on developing their road car programe.

[McG]

So Ricardo will continue to build the engine until McLaren have their new building accross from the McLaren Tech Centre, the current Ricardo building only being used to complete the pilot engines?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArtic ... rs/240248/

http://www.ricardo.com/en-gb/News--Medi ... roduction/

[Pup]

I think the new McLaren facility is for assembly only. It reads to me like Ricardo is gearing up for a long term partnership. And why not? They're more than capable of designing and building engines for F1.